4 ms·

I largely agree with you, but I think framing the argument in terms of "status seeking" is slightly disingenuous. Etiquette is not all about status seeking. Pl

I largely agree with you, but I think framing the argument in terms of "status seeking" is slightly disingenuous. Etiquette is not all about status seeking. Placing cutlery at 4:22 when you are finished with your meal seems like a silly etiquette rule, but it signals the wait staff that you are finished, and increases efficiency for the restaurant, the staff, and the dinner guests. Knowing who to tip and how much increases the happiness and satisfaction of everyone involved in service transactions by managing expectations and fulfilling them, increasing stability for everyone. Keeping an up-to-date address book for your acquaintances is something that I never heard of growing up; I have one childhood friend who has asked for my address three times in the last year. I could go on, but the real point is that the ability to operate with proper etiquette is a signal to others who are doing the same. You are telling each other that you are friendly, respectful, courteous, and have an attention to detail. When it comes to getting things done, a group of people like this working together are going to be more productive than a random group of people lacking the same social skills but otherwise having similar abilities. Removing friction and conflict by following seemingly-silly conventions is not zero sum. Among the truly wealthy, this is not status-seeking behavior, it's simply what one does. It only looks like status-seeking to those who are not "playing the game." I first realized this when reading YouTube comments for a dining etiquette video (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj5Rt-7b9I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj5Rt-7b9I). The majority of Americans (myself included) were not taught these methods, and they think that it's absolutely silly. Those who grew up doing this are wondering what kind of barbarians do not eat in this way. Those who host parties know that if everyone eats with "proper etiquette," you can fit more people around a table and limit the spread of germs (e.g. placing dirty silverware back on the table).

yummyfajitas 16y ago
...the real point is that the ability to operate with proper etiquette is a signal to others who are doing the same. You are telling each other that you are friendly, respectful, courteous, and have an attention to detail. As you say, it's about signalling that you are part of an secret in-crowd. The efficiency gains you describe are minimal. Seriously, waiters picking up your dishes 3 minutes later, or spending 90 seconds per year giving out your address is irrelevant. If you are as rich as you say, you can afford a big enough table to give the barbarians elbow room (if you wanted to). The harm caused by being in the presence of dirty dishes for a few minutes more might be positive, but it's very close to zero. And are you seriously going to tell me your suit and newly shined shoes are more efficient (for any purpose other than signalling your status) than my jeans and aasics/hiking boots (depending on the weather)?
- BrandonM 16y ago
  I'm not trying to say that I'm rich, just that I've been part of those circles lately, and my perception is starting to change a little bit. Note that the "secret in-crowd" you mention is more likely to be the kind of people that you want to associate with anyways, people who will have a positive effect on your personal and professional life. Technical interviews are largely unfair, but we agree that they are necessary to weed out the worst candidates. Social etiquette is very similar in that it's somewhat unfair to the people who are bad at it, but at the same time it's a very effective screening process. I would never anticipate getting mugged by someone wearing a suit. As for the bit about efficiency, I was mostly trying to point out that the etiquette rules are not baseless, and following them is not zero-sum. Each efficiency gain in itself is minimal. What is the value of an unbroken conversation over the course of a meal without a single interruption from the wait staff? What if it's 100 times per year? How about that waiter who can effectively add an additional table to his load because he doesn't have to pause and question before removing a plate? At a nice restaurant, each table is probably worth about $7-15 per hour to the waiter. Giving out my address is not 90 seconds per year total, it's about a minute per friend for each time that friend wants to send me an invitation, or a thank you note, or a Christmas card. How special does it feel to receive a handwritten note? It helps maintain relationships and improve everyone's happiness, and it employs people in the business of selling stationery and teaching calligraphy. In reality, by not having their friends' addresses handy, people end up sending thoughtful notes less often, they are sent in a less-personal digital format, and the occasional mailing becomes a (minor) burden to someone for whom you are trying to do a favor. Etiquette-based efficiency gains don't even have to be major to be worthwhile. Most rules of etiquette are practical and are designed to make life smoother and more enjoyable for everyone. With stress being a major factor in health, and with happier people being more productive, even minor gains in these areas can multiply quickly. Now for a rant about nice clothes... I never said that the clothes are about efficiency; they are more about looking good, feeling confident, being less wasteful, getting great service, and employing more people. I just bought my first nice suits and shoes last month, and the difference in comfort surprised me. Since the measurements are custom, the fit is perfect. The material looks and feels great. Call it fashion or personal taste all you want, but every friend I've encountered has commented on how good I look in my new suits. Between that and the added comfort, I feel more confident, and I find myself rebuilding my sense of self-worth from the low place it was in about eight months ago. Another major difference is the buying experience. While shopping for my new things I had a suit salesperson working closely with me, advising me on the subtle aspects of different styles and making sure I selected something I would be happy with. After making my selections, a tailor measured me to ensure that the (yet-to-be-made) suits would be perfect for me. When I purchased my shoes, a shoe salesman measured my foot to find my exact size (an unusual 10eee), offered me advice for proper care, and gave me his contact information. What happens after the purchase is even more critical. When I picked up my suit, the same salesperson inspected the fit and the quality to ensure that everything was perfect. When I lose weight this year, I can take my suit back to the same store for free alterations. When I had a minor issue with my shoes, I was able to email the shoe salesman and get an answer and a solution with minimal hassle. And it doesn't even stop there. A good suit will be in my wardrobe for a couple decades. When the elbows wear or the seams tear, you take them to a tailor for repair. When the shirt cuffs fray, you get new cuffs. When the shoes lose their luster, you get them shined. When the soles wear, a cobbler puts new ones on. To sum it up, I get an amazing service experience and excellent ongoing care. Along the way, I help several salespeople, a couple tailors, a cobbler, some fashion designers, various shoe shiners and dry cleaners, and countless others make a living. I am less wasteful because my clothes are not shipped across the Pacific, laundered inefficiently at home, and thrown into a dump after a couple years of usage and some wear. I provide people with meaningful, skilled, safe jobs instead of dangerous and unhealthy sweatshop work. It's easy and popular to look at rich people and call them entitled douchebags, but when you get down to it, many of them are doing a lot more good in the world than you would think.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

...the real point is that the ability to operate with proper etiquette is a signal to others who are doing the same. You are telling each other that you are friendly, respectful, courteous, and have an attention to detail. As you say, it's about signalling that you are part of an secret in-crowd. The efficiency gains you describe are minimal. Seriously, waiters picking up your dishes 3 minutes later, or spending 90 seconds per year giving out your address is irrelevant. If you are as rich as you say, you can afford a big enough table to give the barbarians elbow room (if you wanted to). The harm caused by being in the presence of dirty dishes for a few minutes more might be positive, but it's very close to zero. And are you seriously going to tell me your suit and newly shined shoes are more efficient (for any purpose other than signalling your status) than my jeans and aasics/hiking boots (depending on the weather)?

BrandonM 16y ago
I'm not trying to say that I'm rich, just that I've been part of those circles lately, and my perception is starting to change a little bit. Note that the "secret in-crowd" you mention is more likely to be the kind of people that you want to associate with anyways, people who will have a positive effect on your personal and professional life. Technical interviews are largely unfair, but we agree that they are necessary to weed out the worst candidates. Social etiquette is very similar in that it's somewhat unfair to the people who are bad at it, but at the same time it's a very effective screening process. I would never anticipate getting mugged by someone wearing a suit. As for the bit about efficiency, I was mostly trying to point out that the etiquette rules are not baseless, and following them is not zero-sum. Each efficiency gain in itself is minimal. What is the value of an unbroken conversation over the course of a meal without a single interruption from the wait staff? What if it's 100 times per year? How about that waiter who can effectively add an additional table to his load because he doesn't have to pause and question before removing a plate? At a nice restaurant, each table is probably worth about $7-15 per hour to the waiter. Giving out my address is not 90 seconds per year total, it's about a minute per friend for each time that friend wants to send me an invitation, or a thank you note, or a Christmas card. How special does it feel to receive a handwritten note? It helps maintain relationships and improve everyone's happiness, and it employs people in the business of selling stationery and teaching calligraphy. In reality, by not having their friends' addresses handy, people end up sending thoughtful notes less often, they are sent in a less-personal digital format, and the occasional mailing becomes a (minor) burden to someone for whom you are trying to do a favor. Etiquette-based efficiency gains don't even have to be major to be worthwhile. Most rules of etiquette are practical and are designed to make life smoother and more enjoyable for everyone. With stress being a major factor in health, and with happier people being more productive, even minor gains in these areas can multiply quickly. Now for a rant about nice clothes... I never said that the clothes are about efficiency; they are more about looking good, feeling confident, being less wasteful, getting great service, and employing more people. I just bought my first nice suits and shoes last month, and the difference in comfort surprised me. Since the measurements are custom, the fit is perfect. The material looks and feels great. Call it fashion or personal taste all you want, but every friend I've encountered has commented on how good I look in my new suits. Between that and the added comfort, I feel more confident, and I find myself rebuilding my sense of self-worth from the low place it was in about eight months ago. Another major difference is the buying experience. While shopping for my new things I had a suit salesperson working closely with me, advising me on the subtle aspects of different styles and making sure I selected something I would be happy with. After making my selections, a tailor measured me to ensure that the (yet-to-be-made) suits would be perfect for me. When I purchased my shoes, a shoe salesman measured my foot to find my exact size (an unusual 10eee), offered me advice for proper care, and gave me his contact information. What happens after the purchase is even more critical. When I picked up my suit, the same salesperson inspected the fit and the quality to ensure that everything was perfect. When I lose weight this year, I can take my suit back to the same store for free alterations. When I had a minor issue with my shoes, I was able to email the shoe salesman and get an answer and a solution with minimal hassle. And it doesn't even stop there. A good suit will be in my wardrobe for a couple decades. When the elbows wear or the seams tear, you take them to a tailor for repair. When the shirt cuffs fray, you get new cuffs. When the shoes lose their luster, you get them shined. When the soles wear, a cobbler puts new ones on. To sum it up, I get an amazing service experience and excellent ongoing care. Along the way, I help several salespeople, a couple tailors, a cobbler, some fashion designers, various shoe shiners and dry cleaners, and countless others make a living. I am less wasteful because my clothes are not shipped across the Pacific, laundered inefficiently at home, and thrown into a dump after a couple years of usage and some wear. I provide people with meaningful, skilled, safe jobs instead of dangerous and unhealthy sweatshop work. It's easy and popular to look at rich people and call them entitled douchebags, but when you get down to it, many of them are doing a lot more good in the world than you would think.