4 ms·

What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano

What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. The "official" results[0] don't mention anything about his origins. The local press[1] does say his parents are from Tunisia, but only after introducing him as a Parisian. The right national press[2][3] does mention that he is... a chemist, which seems more relevant to the story than the country in which his parent were born. Surely this is an anecdote, but it does match the general observation I've made. (although be sure that would he have killed a person rather than cooked a baguette, his origins would be of the utmost importance for the story telling). [0] https://www.paris.fr/pages/goutez-et-choisissez-la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris-6640 https://www.paris.fr/pages/goutez-et-choisissez-la-meilleure... [1] http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-il-fait-la-meilleure-baguette-de-tradition-parisienne-13-04-2018-7662258.php http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-il-fait-la-meilleure... [2] https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris-se-trouve-dans-le-14e-arrondissement-1418199.html https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris... [3] http://www.lefigaro.fr/sortir-paris/2018/04/13/30004-20180413ARTFIG00155-la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris-se-trouve-dans-le-xive.php http://www.lefigaro.fr/sortir-paris/2018/04/13/30004-2018041...

tomlockwood 7y ago
Thank you for the information! The idea that the rest of the press did not mention his origins reminds me of another part of the original article: > “Sometimes we get clients coming in saying, ‘The neighbourhood is full of Tunisians – thank God you guys are here!’” he said, referring to him and his wife, who works alongside him in the bakery. “But we have Tunisian origins too.” That's another interesting thing to me - which makes me also think about what you said: > What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. I think the core truth here is that even though the effects of racism and xenophobia are quite pronounced, and cannot be dismissed, that all these terms are "made up". I was trolling /pol/ one day and I had someone say to me that the French people weren't "white" which is, truly, consistent with some conceptions of whiteness. But, the most strict original conceptions of whiteness that were made in the 1800s said that Scottish and Irish people weren't white!!! It seems that these sorts of identities twist and change over time, because there's no underlying truth to them. Imagine the rage and fury of those who see white purity as possible when they encounter white hispanic people, or white slavic people, or southern Italians (who made up most american-italian immigrants) saying they are white. So I think the identity of "Tunisian origins" is just as valid as any other racial identity, and just as indistinct. I don't think the American categories are any better or worse, but it is an interesting point of difference.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Neither were Swedes white in the USA when they first immigrated. A generation later, they were.
  - Xylakant 7y ago
    Neither were the refugees displaced from the eastern parts of the german reich after WWII. They were dismissed as Polacks (pejorative for polish people) and worse. Sometimes they were from a town no further than 30 or 40 kilometers away - just on the other side of the new border. These sorts of identities are twisted and made up in ways to suit the narrative.
new2628 7y ago
The downside of this French attitude of everyone being "just French" is that the earlier diversity of identities/languages has also been largely homogenised. Think Alsacian, Languedoc, etc. The effect reaches well beyond France: as other countries fell in love with the model, they went after their own historical ethnic/linguistic minorities with the same determination throughout the 20th century.
- ur-whale 7y ago
  >has also been largely homogenised You say it like it's a bad thing.
  - Glawen 7y ago
    why is it a good thing. For Alsace, the goal of the french state was clear: kill the alsatian culture so that alsatians do not side anymore with the germans. This began by prohibiting children to speak alsatian. Now, the new generation cannot speak it anymore and cannot understand their neighbours (Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland). They have to learn German in school, and they are not particularly good at it. It is a shame, as it would be a nice advantage for them in the current EU. The same happened for other regions (Bretagne, Languedoc, Corsica, Pays basque).
    - seren 7y ago
      I believe what ur-whale is saying is that cultural homogenization, is often seen as bad things for the short term for people that have to endure it, but relatively for the long term it creates more homogeneous region with a shared culture. For example, the Roman Empire destroyed or assimilated hundreds of smaller culture, but it also have the long term effect of creating a common ancestor culture for most of Europe.
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  And the funny thing about that is that rhetoric on the right about the loss of national/white identity and the homogenisation of groups is also accompanied with rhetoric about people on the left having too many identities, or an obsession with different identities. I think you're totally right though, there has definitely been a loss of racial/ethnic/linguistic identity in the world. However, additionally there's been an explosion of other identities. Take from this example the idea that there are a large group of Parisians of "tunisian origin". That just could not have existed in the ages when people rarely travelled a few miles from home. Consider also that the subjects now exist in a nationwide community of baguette bakers - very niche, probably enabled by better communications and transport in this age. Then there's all the other subcultures the subjects probably find themselves at the intersections of, that we don't see talked about in the article. But sure, identifying with your small region of France has been homogenised away.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

tomlockwood 7y ago

Thank you for the information! The idea that the rest of the press did not mention his origins reminds me of another part of the original article: > “Sometimes we get clients coming in saying, ‘The neighbourhood is full of Tunisians – thank God you guys are here!’” he said, referring to him and his wife, who works alongside him in the bakery. “But we have Tunisian origins too.” That's another interesting thing to me - which makes me also think about what you said: > What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. I think the core truth here is that even though the effects of racism and xenophobia are quite pronounced, and cannot be dismissed, that all these terms are "made up". I was trolling /pol/ one day and I had someone say to me that the French people weren't "white" which is, truly, consistent with some conceptions of whiteness. But, the most strict original conceptions of whiteness that were made in the 1800s said that Scottish and Irish people weren't white!!! It seems that these sorts of identities twist and change over time, because there's no underlying truth to them. Imagine the rage and fury of those who see white purity as possible when they encounter white hispanic people, or white slavic people, or southern Italians (who made up most american-italian immigrants) saying they are white. So I think the identity of "Tunisian origins" is just as valid as any other racial identity, and just as indistinct. I don't think the American categories are any better or worse, but it is an interesting point of difference.

jacobush 7y ago
Neither were Swedes white in the USA when they first immigrated. A generation later, they were.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  Neither were the refugees displaced from the eastern parts of the german reich after WWII. They were dismissed as Polacks (pejorative for polish people) and worse. Sometimes they were from a town no further than 30 or 40 kilometers away - just on the other side of the new border. These sorts of identities are twisted and made up in ways to suit the narrative.

new2628 7y ago

The downside of this French attitude of everyone being "just French" is that the earlier diversity of identities/languages has also been largely homogenised. Think Alsacian, Languedoc, etc. The effect reaches well beyond France: as other countries fell in love with the model, they went after their own historical ethnic/linguistic minorities with the same determination throughout the 20th century.

ur-whale 7y ago
>has also been largely homogenised You say it like it's a bad thing.
- Glawen 7y ago
  why is it a good thing. For Alsace, the goal of the french state was clear: kill the alsatian culture so that alsatians do not side anymore with the germans. This began by prohibiting children to speak alsatian. Now, the new generation cannot speak it anymore and cannot understand their neighbours (Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland). They have to learn German in school, and they are not particularly good at it. It is a shame, as it would be a nice advantage for them in the current EU. The same happened for other regions (Bretagne, Languedoc, Corsica, Pays basque).
  - seren 7y ago
    I believe what ur-whale is saying is that cultural homogenization, is often seen as bad things for the short term for people that have to endure it, but relatively for the long term it creates more homogeneous region with a shared culture. For example, the Roman Empire destroyed or assimilated hundreds of smaller culture, but it also have the long term effect of creating a common ancestor culture for most of Europe.
tomlockwood 7y ago
And the funny thing about that is that rhetoric on the right about the loss of national/white identity and the homogenisation of groups is also accompanied with rhetoric about people on the left having too many identities, or an obsession with different identities. I think you're totally right though, there has definitely been a loss of racial/ethnic/linguistic identity in the world. However, additionally there's been an explosion of other identities. Take from this example the idea that there are a large group of Parisians of "tunisian origin". That just could not have existed in the ages when people rarely travelled a few miles from home. Consider also that the subjects now exist in a nationwide community of baguette bakers - very niche, probably enabled by better communications and transport in this age. Then there's all the other subcultures the subjects probably find themselves at the intersections of, that we don't see talked about in the article. But sure, identifying with your small region of France has been homogenised away.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]