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If you go up to a bunch of people doing a craft and you show yourself displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself, those craftsmen will di

If you go up to a bunch of people doing a craft and you show yourself displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself, those craftsmen will disrespect you, and they will be right. As an indie developer it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as they're able to make a living. You can also make a living and be extremely skilled and care about constantly improving, it's not an either/or situation.

danbolt 7y ago
I think Jeff is pretty invested in his craft in general, but it’s just that he focuses on making an ideal product with the resources and abilities he has available to him.
codesushi42 7y ago
That is just your opinion. But does it matter? It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship". His games are entertaining, unique, and better than most indies in my eyes.
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  >It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. It's not that rare. https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025672/2014-vs-2018-The-Shape https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025672/2014-vs-2018-The-Shape This talk goes over how many games are doing extremely well at any point in time on Steam alone and it's actually hundreds of games. It's mostly a function of time and persistence for any individual developer and given that Steam has only been around for indies in a big way for about 8 years we'll start seeing more and more indie devs making a living over time. >As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship" That's great, but your post complained about the actions of other developers towards him. I explained, from the perspective of a developer, why I received his message negatively. It's a message of mediocrity in an important aspect of the craft and it shows his lack of care for it. I couldn't care less about what gamers think, gamers aren't around me when I'm spending 10 hours a day every day in front of the computer coding. To make games you have to love the craft, and I won't think highly of peers who show no interest in the craft itself.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    Like any art, the vast majority of indie games fail to sell. It doesn't need any further explanation. Also, who are you to be the judge of one's technique and craftsmanship? Apparently enough people enjoy Jeff's technique and craftsmanship to continue buying his games. And that's all that matters.
    - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
      >Apparently enough people enjoy Jeff's technique and craftsmanship to continue buying his games. And that's all that matters. I think we're just talking past each other. I'm explicitly saying that from a developer's perspective that's precisely not all that matters. From your perspective as a non-game developer you're right, but if you're going to address game developers and say that they're wrong you should consider their perspectives as well.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - codesushi42 7y ago
        As I said, who are you to judge Jeff's craftsmanship? Or who are most other game devs for that matter?
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - tempodox 7y ago
        It's a game, not a vernissage in an artsy-fartsy gallery.
  - welly 7y ago
    His craft is surely in the stories as opposed to the visuals.
shkkmo 7y ago
> displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself That is a pretty presumptuous thing to say about someone who has made a life making games which are loved by his fans. What's the skin off your back that this guy has different priorities for what he likes in games than you do? Why is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good art?
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  Anyone with any aesthetic sense can point out how his games are lacking visually, so it's not that presumptuous at all. The effects of his game's poor art on his ability to run a business are another matter altogether that I personally don't care about. As for priorities, people can have different priorities, but there are a few basics that in my opinion anyone can improve at with minimal effort as long as they try. Developing an aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen and what doesn't is one of those things. It's clear this guy hasn't bothered with this and in my view that makes him a mediocre game developer, which is a kind of developer that I will not look up to if I want to improve. >Why is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good art? This can be a very long discussion but art is the one thing that is immediately visible to anyone. In some ways it's the most important aspect of a game. I don't have the same views on code that I have on art, for instance. With code you can get away with very poor practices and you can be very pragmatic about it because bad code is not nearly as visible as bad art.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - loxs 7y ago
    As someone who lacks aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen but is interested to improve, could you recommend how to do it with "minimal effort" as you say?
    - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
      The best thing you can do is post images/gifs of what you're working on social media (twitter, tumblr, reddit) and see how many likes/upvotes it gets. As you post things you will be able to compare either to your past posts or to posts of others on how well it does, and if something goes significantly above/below average you can derive that it likely looks better/worse than whatever it's being compared against.
coldtea 7y ago
>As an indie developer it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as they're able to make a living. Well, someone who made this: https://store.steampowered.com/app/760330/BYTEPATH/?curator_clanid=33576109 https://store.steampowered.com/app/760330/BYTEPATH/?curator_... Shouldn't speak so derisively of Jeff's graphics. This looks like a mediocre attempt of poor craftmanship and amateur graphics. It looks like a paint-over over something like Thrust with crude basic artwork... See how it cuts both ways? What's worse, unlike Jeff's games, where the gameplay and story are the important parts, this even has tired old mechanics and a trite shooter gameplay.
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  I've written about this game and the process of making it here https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/35 https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/35 and here https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/31 https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/31 if you're curious. >See how it cuts both ways? Not really. I haven't been in the industry for 25 years and I haven't written articles excusing my game's poor visual quality. I'm aware of my abilities and I'm constantly working on improving them. For instance, you can see the current game I'm working on here https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ and generally people are responding better to its visuals than they did for my previous game. If you find me 20 years from now making the same types of games and writing articles about how my games look bad and how it's actually all intentional then maybe you'll have an argument.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Not really. I haven't been in the industry for 25 years and I haven't written articles excusing my game's poor visual quality. No, just comments pissing on the work of others, who have managed to be in the industry for 25 years. I don't get how somebody who does this: https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ/status/1148009596801507329 https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ/status/1148009596801507329 Gets to complain about the graphics in Jeff's games. >If you find me 20 years from now making the same types of games and writing articles about how my games look bad and how it's actually all intentional then maybe you'll have an argument. What if I don't find you 20 years from now, because you didn't make it and quitted the industry?

danbolt 7y ago

I think Jeff is pretty invested in his craft in general, but it’s just that he focuses on making an ideal product with the resources and abilities he has available to him.

codesushi42 7y ago

That is just your opinion. But does it matter? It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship". His games are entertaining, unique, and better than most indies in my eyes.

adnzzzzZ 7y ago
>It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. It's not that rare. https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025672/2014-vs-2018-The-Shape https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025672/2014-vs-2018-The-Shape This talk goes over how many games are doing extremely well at any point in time on Steam alone and it's actually hundreds of games. It's mostly a function of time and persistence for any individual developer and given that Steam has only been around for indies in a big way for about 8 years we'll start seeing more and more indie devs making a living over time. >As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship" That's great, but your post complained about the actions of other developers towards him. I explained, from the perspective of a developer, why I received his message negatively. It's a message of mediocrity in an important aspect of the craft and it shows his lack of care for it. I couldn't care less about what gamers think, gamers aren't around me when I'm spending 10 hours a day every day in front of the computer coding. To make games you have to love the craft, and I won't think highly of peers who show no interest in the craft itself.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  Like any art, the vast majority of indie games fail to sell. It doesn't need any further explanation. Also, who are you to be the judge of one's technique and craftsmanship? Apparently enough people enjoy Jeff's technique and craftsmanship to continue buying his games. And that's all that matters.
  - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
    >Apparently enough people enjoy Jeff's technique and craftsmanship to continue buying his games. And that's all that matters. I think we're just talking past each other. I'm explicitly saying that from a developer's perspective that's precisely not all that matters. From your perspective as a non-game developer you're right, but if you're going to address game developers and say that they're wrong you should consider their perspectives as well.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - codesushi42 7y ago
      As I said, who are you to judge Jeff's craftsmanship? Or who are most other game devs for that matter?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - tempodox 7y ago
      It's a game, not a vernissage in an artsy-fartsy gallery.
- welly 7y ago
  His craft is surely in the stories as opposed to the visuals.

shkkmo 7y ago

> displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself That is a pretty presumptuous thing to say about someone who has made a life making games which are loved by his fans. What's the skin off your back that this guy has different priorities for what he likes in games than you do? Why is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good art?

adnzzzzZ 7y ago
Anyone with any aesthetic sense can point out how his games are lacking visually, so it's not that presumptuous at all. The effects of his game's poor art on his ability to run a business are another matter altogether that I personally don't care about. As for priorities, people can have different priorities, but there are a few basics that in my opinion anyone can improve at with minimal effort as long as they try. Developing an aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen and what doesn't is one of those things. It's clear this guy hasn't bothered with this and in my view that makes him a mediocre game developer, which is a kind of developer that I will not look up to if I want to improve. >Why is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good art? This can be a very long discussion but art is the one thing that is immediately visible to anyone. In some ways it's the most important aspect of a game. I don't have the same views on code that I have on art, for instance. With code you can get away with very poor practices and you can be very pragmatic about it because bad code is not nearly as visible as bad art.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- loxs 7y ago
  As someone who lacks aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen but is interested to improve, could you recommend how to do it with "minimal effort" as you say?
  - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
    The best thing you can do is post images/gifs of what you're working on social media (twitter, tumblr, reddit) and see how many likes/upvotes it gets. As you post things you will be able to compare either to your past posts or to posts of others on how well it does, and if something goes significantly above/below average you can derive that it likely looks better/worse than whatever it's being compared against.

coldtea 7y ago

>As an indie developer it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as they're able to make a living. Well, someone who made this: https://store.steampowered.com/app/760330/BYTEPATH/?curator_clanid=33576109 https://store.steampowered.com/app/760330/BYTEPATH/?curator_... Shouldn't speak so derisively of Jeff's graphics. This looks like a mediocre attempt of poor craftmanship and amateur graphics. It looks like a paint-over over something like Thrust with crude basic artwork... See how it cuts both ways? What's worse, unlike Jeff's games, where the gameplay and story are the important parts, this even has tired old mechanics and a trite shooter gameplay.

adnzzzzZ 7y ago
I've written about this game and the process of making it here https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/35 https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/35 and here https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/31 https://github.com/adnzzzzZ/blog/issues/31 if you're curious. >See how it cuts both ways? Not really. I haven't been in the industry for 25 years and I haven't written articles excusing my game's poor visual quality. I'm aware of my abilities and I'm constantly working on improving them. For instance, you can see the current game I'm working on here https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ and generally people are responding better to its visuals than they did for my previous game. If you find me 20 years from now making the same types of games and writing articles about how my games look bad and how it's actually all intentional then maybe you'll have an argument.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Not really. I haven't been in the industry for 25 years and I haven't written articles excusing my game's poor visual quality. No, just comments pissing on the work of others, who have managed to be in the industry for 25 years. I don't get how somebody who does this: https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ/status/1148009596801507329 https://twitter.com/adnzzzzZ/status/1148009596801507329 Gets to complain about the graphics in Jeff's games. >If you find me 20 years from now making the same types of games and writing articles about how my games look bad and how it's actually all intentional then maybe you'll have an argument. What if I don't find you 20 years from now, because you didn't make it and quitted the industry?