4 ms·

How could anyone possibly support this policy?

by mjfl 7y ago

malandrew 7y ago
There are quite a lot of people these days on a quixotic quest where diversity is their one and only holy grail, and it is to be achieved at all costs, all other considerations be damned.
- AgentOrange1234 7y ago
  There are also quite a lot of people these days on an unholy quest to condemn the “sjws” they think are out to ruin ‘murica. My (white) kids are in GT and it is a godsend for them. So I pretty much hate everything about this article and am glad I don’t live in NYC. At the same time, I would love more diversity in their school. My high school was 95+% white. We are a seriously segregated country, and it’s a real problem.
manfredo 7y ago
There's a lot of dissatisfaction with the race-blind test-based admissions that result in disparities in admissions between ethnic groups [1]. A significant portion of people want equality of outcome. Especially how the article writes: > The city should also redesign its competitive high school admissions process to ensure that high schools reflect the racial and economic make up of their boroughs, the panel found. It does sound an awful lot like racial quotas (or, "outcome base goals" is I think the more contemporary term). But that's the view of equality that many people have. Ultimately, I'm not sure if this will result in real desegregation. Even in schools that are desegregated on paper, students are internally segregated by academic capability. A Seattle HS principal explains his perspective here [2]. Students studying AP calc aren't studying with the ones doing geometry. Same with AP ____ classes. But that's a harder problem to solve, and politicians feel pressured to deliver something to their constituents. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/nyregion/black-students-nyc-high-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/nyregion/black-students-n... Stuyvesant isn't impacted by this proposal, but this article offers a good portrayal of what I'm referring to. 2. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/microcosm-of-the-city-garfield-principal-navigates-racial-divide/ https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/microcosm-of-the-...
- hogFeast 7y ago
  There is some interesting research on the effectiveness of race-blind vs quotas: Parag Pathak has written about this specifically (some are on NBER). Joshua Angrist also has a few good papers on education. From what I have read, race-blind is less effective than quotas in terms of achieving stated aims of policy...but I am not sure what this actually means given that: the exact goals of policies are often not clear, it isn't clear why race-blind doesn't work as well (given that it is often focused on socioeconomic disadvantage), etc. Definitely an interesting topic though as it is so amenable to research. My common-sense instinct, as a non-American with nothing at stake, is that this is playing with fire.
ardit33 7y ago
"how could anyone support communism..." yet it happened. In many countries (including mine), the communist were the minority, but they won by sheer force of being the loudest/most extreme group in the field.... and some USSR backing. In this case you have a group that is loud enough, to demand changes, which will probably/might help some on the segregation side, but sink all smart students that actually want to learn more than the lower common denominator... The article mentions that currently 75% of the students in NY public schools are from minority groups, and a large portion of white and asian students have already left the system altogether... this is akin in third world countries, where people vote with their feet and flee their countries to escape the corruption and bad conditions and become immigrants somewhere else.... The NY public system is like the Venezuela of education....
asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
Context: wealthy white parent of a public school student living in NYC. I do not subscribe to the "equality of outcome" goal that some other folks in the thread have imputed on the supporters of this move. I haven't had time to make up my mind on this. However, I can definitely understand the motivation, and I can picture being in support. So here's the background, as I understand it: one really important question is whether the G&T program actually provides any better education to the kids that are in it. Many people feel it doesn't. It doesn't have its own curriculum, except the citywide program, where they just tackle material a year earlier than usual. The district-wide G&T programs -- which comprise the vast majority of the system -- just leave a little more up to teacher discretion than mainstream classrooms. So the question then becomes, what is the actual value of the G&T programs (other than the citywide one)? People do not believe that white and asian people are intentionally segregating themselves from black and hispanic people for no other benefit. However, that is the most obvious effect. And as we all know, the purpose of a system is what it does. From the perspective of that systems engineering-style thinking, unless a positive case can be made for the G&T program, there's a strong argument to be made that it should be scrapped. The school district has no compelling interest in providing a system whose sole benefit is socioeconomic and racial sorting. In fact, the main beneficiaries of this move would be the very folks who work so hard to get their kids into G&T programs. Because that stressor -- getting kids into the program -- would be removed, while giving no worse outcomes than what they could have expected before. That is the gist of the argument in support of getting rid of the program. My son did not test in to G&T. He has some various social and linguistic delays, but, more importantly, I did not do any of the test prep I'm led to believe many of my colleagues gave their kids. I will probably have my son retested this year after doing some professional test prep. Even though I think it's possible the G&T programs offer no benefit, it's hard to wager his future on that bet, and he wasn't that far from testing in. A lot will depend on how his first year of classes go.
- rhapsodic 7y ago
  If you're wealthy, why not send your son to private school?
- RhysU 7y ago
  > It doesn't have its own curriculum, except the citywide program, where they just tackle material a year earlier than usual. What's wrong with just being a full-year ahead? If the core curriculum is essential, something like a reasonable claim, then not skipping any of it would follow. Either additional lessons would be needed at extra cost or it could be sped up. They chose sped up. Very common for students outside NY who excel at, say, math. > And as we all know, the purpose of a system is what it does. Have a citation for my exploring this line of thought?
empath75 7y ago
I went to a public high school in southern Maryland in the 90s. I took all honors and gifted classes. There was 1 black kid in any of my classes — in a school that was something like 60% black. And let me tell you, a lot of the white kids in my ‘gifted classes’ were idiots. It was just a way to segregate white kids from black kids within the school. If you were white and your parents had money, you were on the college track. Everyone else was going to votech.

How could anyone possibly support this policy?

by mjfl 7y ago

How could anyone possibly support this policy?

There are quite a lot of people these days on a quixotic quest where diversity is their one and only holy grail, and it is to be achieved at all costs, all other considerations be damned.

AgentOrange1234 7y ago
There are also quite a lot of people these days on an unholy quest to condemn the “sjws” they think are out to ruin ‘murica. My (white) kids are in GT and it is a godsend for them. So I pretty much hate everything about this article and am glad I don’t live in NYC. At the same time, I would love more diversity in their school. My high school was 95+% white. We are a seriously segregated country, and it’s a real problem.

manfredo 7y ago

There's a lot of dissatisfaction with the race-blind test-based admissions that result in disparities in admissions between ethnic groups [1]. A significant portion of people want equality of outcome. Especially how the article writes: > The city should also redesign its competitive high school admissions process to ensure that high schools reflect the racial and economic make up of their boroughs, the panel found. It does sound an awful lot like racial quotas (or, "outcome base goals" is I think the more contemporary term). But that's the view of equality that many people have. Ultimately, I'm not sure if this will result in real desegregation. Even in schools that are desegregated on paper, students are internally segregated by academic capability. A Seattle HS principal explains his perspective here [2]. Students studying AP calc aren't studying with the ones doing geometry. Same with AP ____ classes. But that's a harder problem to solve, and politicians feel pressured to deliver something to their constituents. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/nyregion/black-students-nyc-high-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/nyregion/black-students-n... Stuyvesant isn't impacted by this proposal, but this article offers a good portrayal of what I'm referring to. 2. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/microcosm-of-the-city-garfield-principal-navigates-racial-divide/ https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/microcosm-of-the-...

hogFeast 7y ago
There is some interesting research on the effectiveness of race-blind vs quotas: Parag Pathak has written about this specifically (some are on NBER). Joshua Angrist also has a few good papers on education. From what I have read, race-blind is less effective than quotas in terms of achieving stated aims of policy...but I am not sure what this actually means given that: the exact goals of policies are often not clear, it isn't clear why race-blind doesn't work as well (given that it is often focused on socioeconomic disadvantage), etc. Definitely an interesting topic though as it is so amenable to research. My common-sense instinct, as a non-American with nothing at stake, is that this is playing with fire.

ardit33 7y ago

"how could anyone support communism..." yet it happened. In many countries (including mine), the communist were the minority, but they won by sheer force of being the loudest/most extreme group in the field.... and some USSR backing. In this case you have a group that is loud enough, to demand changes, which will probably/might help some on the segregation side, but sink all smart students that actually want to learn more than the lower common denominator... The article mentions that currently 75% of the students in NY public schools are from minority groups, and a large portion of white and asian students have already left the system altogether... this is akin in third world countries, where people vote with their feet and flee their countries to escape the corruption and bad conditions and become immigrants somewhere else.... The NY public system is like the Venezuela of education....

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

Context: wealthy white parent of a public school student living in NYC. I do not subscribe to the "equality of outcome" goal that some other folks in the thread have imputed on the supporters of this move. I haven't had time to make up my mind on this. However, I can definitely understand the motivation, and I can picture being in support. So here's the background, as I understand it: one really important question is whether the G&T program actually provides any better education to the kids that are in it. Many people feel it doesn't. It doesn't have its own curriculum, except the citywide program, where they just tackle material a year earlier than usual. The district-wide G&T programs -- which comprise the vast majority of the system -- just leave a little more up to teacher discretion than mainstream classrooms. So the question then becomes, what is the actual value of the G&T programs (other than the citywide one)? People do not believe that white and asian people are intentionally segregating themselves from black and hispanic people for no other benefit. However, that is the most obvious effect. And as we all know, the purpose of a system is what it does. From the perspective of that systems engineering-style thinking, unless a positive case can be made for the G&T program, there's a strong argument to be made that it should be scrapped. The school district has no compelling interest in providing a system whose sole benefit is socioeconomic and racial sorting. In fact, the main beneficiaries of this move would be the very folks who work so hard to get their kids into G&T programs. Because that stressor -- getting kids into the program -- would be removed, while giving no worse outcomes than what they could have expected before. That is the gist of the argument in support of getting rid of the program. My son did not test in to G&T. He has some various social and linguistic delays, but, more importantly, I did not do any of the test prep I'm led to believe many of my colleagues gave their kids. I will probably have my son retested this year after doing some professional test prep. Even though I think it's possible the G&T programs offer no benefit, it's hard to wager his future on that bet, and he wasn't that far from testing in. A lot will depend on how his first year of classes go.

rhapsodic 7y ago
If you're wealthy, why not send your son to private school?
RhysU 7y ago
> It doesn't have its own curriculum, except the citywide program, where they just tackle material a year earlier than usual. What's wrong with just being a full-year ahead? If the core curriculum is essential, something like a reasonable claim, then not skipping any of it would follow. Either additional lessons would be needed at extra cost or it could be sped up. They chose sped up. Very common for students outside NY who excel at, say, math. > And as we all know, the purpose of a system is what it does. Have a citation for my exploring this line of thought?

empath75 7y ago

I went to a public high school in southern Maryland in the 90s. I took all honors and gifted classes. There was 1 black kid in any of my classes — in a school that was something like 60% black. And let me tell you, a lot of the white kids in my ‘gifted classes’ were idiots. It was just a way to segregate white kids from black kids within the school. If you were white and your parents had money, you were on the college track. Everyone else was going to votech.