5 ms·

Really? They wiped out poverty? http://www.redbarnet.dk/Default.aspx?ID=2208 http://www.redbarnet.dk/Default.aspx?ID=2208 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

by rick888 16y ago

Really? They wiped out poverty? http://www.redbarnet.dk/Default.aspx?ID=2208 http://www.redbarnet.dk/Default.aspx?ID=2208 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Canada http://www.economist.com/node/17581844 http://www.economist.com/node/17581844 Poverty exists in every nation in the world. There are a small percentage of people that have mental or physical issues, and they should be helped by the government. The rest need to get jobs. If you are stuck in a dead-end job, I don't feel sorry for you. I was stuck in one. It takes hard work, dedication, and sacrifice to get out. I've know a ton of people stuck in those types of jobs and most of them weren't willing to sacrifice their free time for their career. Instead of sitting at home and watching TV, playing video games, or hanging out with your friends when you get home from work, educate yourself. We are in an age where you can get tons of free information online. MIT even has free courses. Hell, if you want to go the less legal route, you can find almost any college textbook in pdf format, for free. I'm tired of people making excuses for lazy people. It reminds me of when I was in school: we would have group projects where one or two people would do all of the work and the rest (usually 4-5 people) would sit and earn the same amount of credit. I suppose this was a model for real life. "Meritocracy is a complete myth. The poor work the hardest and most dangerous jobs and the most hours." If you have a job that anybody can do, you aren't going to get paid very much..because its value is low. Making money has never been just about working hard. It also takes intelligence, skill, and there needs to be value in it.

z0r 16y ago
Making money is about exploiting economic opportunities. "Value" is an almost meaningless word. The garbage men who take the trash off my curb provide more value than a lot of white collar management, in my opinion. If you're either intelligent and skillful, you'll certainly have a better chance of identifying a desirable economic niche to fill and being able to work your way towards it. But is it right that many of the hardest working people in society, doing undesirable jobs, are compensated so much less than "knowledge workers"? Do you really think an 8 hour day sitting at a desk deserves twice as much pay as an 8 hour day digging a ditch? What the fuck is value? The compensation of a ditch digger has more to do with what a ditch digger can be offered to sustain himself than with any intrinsic 'value' of his work. That's true of a lot of shitty jobs, and it's bullshit that the people who have figured out how to exploit these shitty jobs to generate 'value' also somehow deserve respect, while the exploited are denigrated for their moral failures (such as laziness).
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rick888 16y ago
  "The garbage men who take the trash off my curb provide more value than a lot of white collar management, in my opinion" The garbage men in my city get paid $50,000+/year (it's in the midwest). I think this is a pretty good wage. "Do you really think an 8 hour day sitting at a desk deserves twice as much pay as an 8 hour day digging a ditch? What the fuck is value?" It's not for me (or you) to decide. If someone is willing to pay a ditch digger $300,000/year, so be it. The market decides value and it's usually based on supply/demand. Since anyone who is under 40, healthy, and has two legs can dig a ditch, I don't see the wages being that high. "That's true of a lot of shitty jobs, and it's bullshit that the people who have figured out how to exploit these shitty jobs to generate 'value' also somehow deserve respect, while the exploited are denigrated for their moral failures (such as laziness)." Why don't you start a company and pay ditch diggers the same as office workers? I know you won't, because you would rather force other companies to do it instead.
  - z0r 16y ago
    Your point about supply and demand determining value is well taken, and I acknowledge that is the way capitalist economies operate. I was criticizing it because I find the commodification of labor to be dehumanizing. If only there were some theory of value that took labor into account...
lotusleaf1987 16y ago
You're delusional and narcissistic and clearly incapable of understanding another person's life beyond your own. What about the people who work back to back jobs at minimum wage and still can't afford to get educated or gain the necessary skills? There are plenty of people working just to pay their bills and barely treading water. |Poverty exists in every nation in the world. The poverty in those countries doesn't even begin to compare to the poverty in the US, in terms of number or hardship. Those countries all have national healthcare. |If you are stuck in a dead-end job, I don't feel sorry for you. Yes because those people are so inferior they deserve to live in squalor. Great attitude. |Hell, if you want to go the less legal route, you can find almost any college textbook in pdf format, for free. You're assuming everyone has access to the internet, a computer, and knows how to torrent. |If you have a job that anybody can do, you aren't going to get paid very much..because its value is low. Making money has never been just about working hard. It also takes intelligence, skill, and there needs to be value in it. What about the millions upon millions of people working jobs in construction, fruit picking/packing, working in warehouses, garbage disposal, retail, or any number of other jobs. Some people are born into poverty and because of one reason or another are never able to escape it. I don't think everyone deserves that, even if they aren't a Mensa members. Clearly intelligence does not make you a better person. You need to go read Howard Zinn. He explains this much more eloquently than I can. I find your entire rationalization of poverty to be completely bogus, unfounded, and disconnected from reality.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rick888 16y ago
  "he poverty in those countries doesn't even begin to compare to the poverty in the US, in terms of number or hardship. Those countries all have national healthcare." 85% of the population has healthcare in the US. Hospitals will also not turn down someone that goes there in an emergency. "Yes because those people are so inferior they deserve to live in squalor. Great attitude." I gave you reasons why, if you want to make up your own, it's fine by me. "You're assuming everyone has access to the internet, a computer, and knows how to torrent." That was just a suggestion. You can find things legally (and free). Every library in every major city in the US has free Internet. "What about the millions upon millions of people working jobs in construction, fruit picking/packing, working in warehouses, garbage disposal, retail, or any number of other jobs." They are paid what they are worth. Fruit picking? Probably low paying, because the supply is much higher. Many of the other jobs you mention are well above minimum wage (and some are unionized). "Some people are born into poverty and because of one reason or another are never able to escape it." Give me a good reason why someone (without being mentally or physically incapable) can't escape it? "I find your entire rationalization of poverty to be completely bogus, unfounded, and disconnected from reality." If the book you mention spews the same garbage in your posts, I'm not going to bother.
aphyr 16y ago
"If you have a job that anybody can do, you aren't going to get paid very much..because its value is low." This is not how labor markets work. I think the inappropriate generalization of a HN reader's experience to the working poor in general is aptly addressed by other responders.
- rick888 16y ago
  "This is not how labor markets work." It's exactly how labor markets work (without the unions inflating wages). The reason Mcdonalds workers are paid a little above minimum wage is because the skill required to do those types of jobs is low. Since it is low, the supply of applicants is huge and the company knows that if you aren't willing to work for them for that wage, they will almost certainly find someone who will. When I say value, I should have said wage, because you and many others seem to be taking the defensive. "I think the inappropriate generalization of a HN reader's experience to the working poor in general is aptly addressed by other responders." If you have a low paying job (and you can physically and mentally work), why aren't you trying to find a better one? I really want to know. All I hear are excuses or things that can be changed.
  - aphyr 16y ago
    I understood your point the first time. I still respectfully disagree, but perhaps someone with more understanding of macro can step in here. In idealized, infinitely large, rational labor markets, wages are still driven by the interaction of supply and demand. Even in this model, you are ignoring the other half of the equilibrium--that only where employment is available and desired are wages available. It is perfectly possible for large pools of skilled workers to fail to find employment because of insufficient employment opportunity (as an example, consider the tech crash, or Detroit), or for jobs which do not require special skills to command astronomical prices as a result of insufficient labor supply (e.g. Alaskan fisheries or nursing). Of course, the market is finite. This makes it possible for group pressures to distort the wage price point. You correctly identified one half of these pressures: unionization. The other half is employer pressure, in which a company dominates enough of the job pool that it can set uncompetitive wages. That's a form of monopoly, and is why some folks get really angry about Walmart showing up in their town. Oh, and government regulatory pressure is acting on both sides of this dynamic in various ways, from tax structures to discrimination and safety laws. It gets worse, actually, because perfect information is not available reflecting the market state, there's a significant lag time between training and employment, and people were never rational actors to begin with. If this is unconvincing, I encourage you to consider the constraint of social capital.

by rick888 16y ago

z0r 16y ago

Making money is about exploiting economic opportunities. "Value" is an almost meaningless word. The garbage men who take the trash off my curb provide more value than a lot of white collar management, in my opinion. If you're either intelligent and skillful, you'll certainly have a better chance of identifying a desirable economic niche to fill and being able to work your way towards it. But is it right that many of the hardest working people in society, doing undesirable jobs, are compensated so much less than "knowledge workers"? Do you really think an 8 hour day sitting at a desk deserves twice as much pay as an 8 hour day digging a ditch? What the fuck is value? The compensation of a ditch digger has more to do with what a ditch digger can be offered to sustain himself than with any intrinsic 'value' of his work. That's true of a lot of shitty jobs, and it's bullshit that the people who have figured out how to exploit these shitty jobs to generate 'value' also somehow deserve respect, while the exploited are denigrated for their moral failures (such as laziness).

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
rick888 16y ago
"The garbage men who take the trash off my curb provide more value than a lot of white collar management, in my opinion" The garbage men in my city get paid $50,000+/year (it's in the midwest). I think this is a pretty good wage. "Do you really think an 8 hour day sitting at a desk deserves twice as much pay as an 8 hour day digging a ditch? What the fuck is value?" It's not for me (or you) to decide. If someone is willing to pay a ditch digger $300,000/year, so be it. The market decides value and it's usually based on supply/demand. Since anyone who is under 40, healthy, and has two legs can dig a ditch, I don't see the wages being that high. "That's true of a lot of shitty jobs, and it's bullshit that the people who have figured out how to exploit these shitty jobs to generate 'value' also somehow deserve respect, while the exploited are denigrated for their moral failures (such as laziness)." Why don't you start a company and pay ditch diggers the same as office workers? I know you won't, because you would rather force other companies to do it instead.
- z0r 16y ago
  Your point about supply and demand determining value is well taken, and I acknowledge that is the way capitalist economies operate. I was criticizing it because I find the commodification of labor to be dehumanizing. If only there were some theory of value that took labor into account...

lotusleaf1987 16y ago

You're delusional and narcissistic and clearly incapable of understanding another person's life beyond your own. What about the people who work back to back jobs at minimum wage and still can't afford to get educated or gain the necessary skills? There are plenty of people working just to pay their bills and barely treading water. |Poverty exists in every nation in the world. The poverty in those countries doesn't even begin to compare to the poverty in the US, in terms of number or hardship. Those countries all have national healthcare. |If you are stuck in a dead-end job, I don't feel sorry for you. Yes because those people are so inferior they deserve to live in squalor. Great attitude. |Hell, if you want to go the less legal route, you can find almost any college textbook in pdf format, for free. You're assuming everyone has access to the internet, a computer, and knows how to torrent. |If you have a job that anybody can do, you aren't going to get paid very much..because its value is low. Making money has never been just about working hard. It also takes intelligence, skill, and there needs to be value in it. What about the millions upon millions of people working jobs in construction, fruit picking/packing, working in warehouses, garbage disposal, retail, or any number of other jobs. Some people are born into poverty and because of one reason or another are never able to escape it. I don't think everyone deserves that, even if they aren't a Mensa members. Clearly intelligence does not make you a better person. You need to go read Howard Zinn. He explains this much more eloquently than I can. I find your entire rationalization of poverty to be completely bogus, unfounded, and disconnected from reality.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
rick888 16y ago
"he poverty in those countries doesn't even begin to compare to the poverty in the US, in terms of number or hardship. Those countries all have national healthcare." 85% of the population has healthcare in the US. Hospitals will also not turn down someone that goes there in an emergency. "Yes because those people are so inferior they deserve to live in squalor. Great attitude." I gave you reasons why, if you want to make up your own, it's fine by me. "You're assuming everyone has access to the internet, a computer, and knows how to torrent." That was just a suggestion. You can find things legally (and free). Every library in every major city in the US has free Internet. "What about the millions upon millions of people working jobs in construction, fruit picking/packing, working in warehouses, garbage disposal, retail, or any number of other jobs." They are paid what they are worth. Fruit picking? Probably low paying, because the supply is much higher. Many of the other jobs you mention are well above minimum wage (and some are unionized). "Some people are born into poverty and because of one reason or another are never able to escape it." Give me a good reason why someone (without being mentally or physically incapable) can't escape it? "I find your entire rationalization of poverty to be completely bogus, unfounded, and disconnected from reality." If the book you mention spews the same garbage in your posts, I'm not going to bother.

aphyr 16y ago

"If you have a job that anybody can do, you aren't going to get paid very much..because its value is low." This is not how labor markets work. I think the inappropriate generalization of a HN reader's experience to the working poor in general is aptly addressed by other responders.

rick888 16y ago
"This is not how labor markets work." It's exactly how labor markets work (without the unions inflating wages). The reason Mcdonalds workers are paid a little above minimum wage is because the skill required to do those types of jobs is low. Since it is low, the supply of applicants is huge and the company knows that if you aren't willing to work for them for that wage, they will almost certainly find someone who will. When I say value, I should have said wage, because you and many others seem to be taking the defensive. "I think the inappropriate generalization of a HN reader's experience to the working poor in general is aptly addressed by other responders." If you have a low paying job (and you can physically and mentally work), why aren't you trying to find a better one? I really want to know. All I hear are excuses or things that can be changed.
- aphyr 16y ago
  I understood your point the first time. I still respectfully disagree, but perhaps someone with more understanding of macro can step in here. In idealized, infinitely large, rational labor markets, wages are still driven by the interaction of supply and demand. Even in this model, you are ignoring the other half of the equilibrium--that only where employment is available and desired are wages available. It is perfectly possible for large pools of skilled workers to fail to find employment because of insufficient employment opportunity (as an example, consider the tech crash, or Detroit), or for jobs which do not require special skills to command astronomical prices as a result of insufficient labor supply (e.g. Alaskan fisheries or nursing). Of course, the market is finite. This makes it possible for group pressures to distort the wage price point. You correctly identified one half of these pressures: unionization. The other half is employer pressure, in which a company dominates enough of the job pool that it can set uncompetitive wages. That's a form of monopoly, and is why some folks get really angry about Walmart showing up in their town. Oh, and government regulatory pressure is acting on both sides of this dynamic in various ways, from tax structures to discrimination and safety laws. It gets worse, actually, because perfect information is not available reflecting the market state, there's a significant lag time between training and employment, and people were never rational actors to begin with. If this is unconvincing, I encourage you to consider the constraint of social capital.