8 ms·

Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

27 points by prostoalex 7y ago

jandrese 7y ago
It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generations if they still believed in the principles of freedom and democracy that the US represents that they would be largely in favor of that stance, but feel that the current government is not upholding those ideals in a way that they approve of.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  > but feel that the current government is not upholding those ideals in a way they approve of. In some cases, the government is actively undermining those ideals. We’re separating thousands of young children from their parents and holding them in horrible conditions in some cases. My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. Add to that gerrymandering, political interference to keep our election infrastructure weak after multiple reports of hacking by foreign governments. Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to.
  - lixtra 7y ago
    > My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. > Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to. When do you think it was better in the past?
    - save_ferris 7y ago
      I'm not arguing that there is a better period in the past than what we're experiencing now. But American history relative to the present has no bearing on the severity of the atrocities we're seeing now, no? Are you suggesting that what I've outlined above is somehow acceptable because America has always had black marks in the history books?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - gremlinsinc 7y ago
      We had better leaders in the past... We've moved the post too far right. Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower even from different parties I think all of them were in support of more support for the people, and I'm pretty sure Eisenhower and Roosevelt at least were both for universal healthcare for all, too bad they didn't push for it back then and get it. We wouldn't be having all the fights about healthcare we have today.
      - mikepurvis 7y ago
        Yup, it's crazy how things that used to be bipartisan no-brainers are now these hugely polarizing issues. Freaking Nixon of all people created the EPA, and look what he had to say about pollution pricing: "We believe that part of the answer lies in pricing energy on the basis of its full costs to society. One reason we use energy so lavishly today is that the price of energy does not include all of the social costs of producing it. The costs incurred in protecting the environment and the health and safety of workers, for example, are part of the real costs of producing energy-but they are not now all included in the price of the product."
- uoaei 7y ago
  Members of the younger generation (myself included) have little experience with administrations who demonstrate their fealty to the abstract ideals of the USA. We have, with few exceptions, not been led by people who have the US populace -- in contrast to its economy and hegemony -- at the forefront of their minds. NAFTA, and globalization more broadly, and its effects has progressed to the point where the promises of prosperity in the age of unfettered trade should have shown some signs of success at the personal level by now -- and yet, here we are. We see and hear about other parts of the world which are harmed by these policies. The authorities on the matter, however, explain it away by pointing at GDP growth curves. But these great results aren't reflected in our lives: burdened by debt and historically low net worths, we've lost faith in those who came before us who keep telling us it's all part of the game. Not so if we were born 70 years ago. To a large extent, I'd say that this has resulted in a cynical and rather extreme position of "actions speak louder than words". Those who represent the USA, being elected officials in keeping with the mythos of the modern representative democracy, are doing a poor job of showing their decency, if there is any hidden inside to begin with. The notable exception is of course Bernie Sanders, who, even if somewhat ineffective during his time in office, was and is steadfast, honest, and genuinely caring about the people individually and as a whole. He demonstrates his alignment with the people's needs far more than anyone else in the political field today, even as hamstrung as he was, aside from maybe Elizabeth Warren. The rest are opportunists, lying through their teeth and brushing off serious blemishes on their record to their own detriment. See: Bernie's policy platforms 4 years ago and how much is reflected in nearly all candidates' platforms today. We're pretty peeved that this blatant deceit is lost on the older generations. From our (my) perspective, the USA has always been shoddy and the people haven't cared about grave injustices as long as their lot in life is stable. Only a few shining stars have risen in those 250-ish years that have made any real progress on ethical issues.
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    > Not so if we were born 70 years ago. Really? That means growing up during late 60's, 70's, 80's. Vietnam, Watergate, trickle-down economics, ...
    - 7y ago
- cwperkins 7y ago
  With all due respect, I did not vote for the president but now find myself more aligned with the Republicans than any 2020 Democrat. Its a smear that they are anti-Diversity. A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of power. All are sympathetic to historical injustices and see the President doing things like First Step Act and Opportunity Zones as legislation that disproportionately benefits minority groups, but does not detract from other groups. I think he's brash and unpolite, but a lot of people I know see this as fighting back against an onslaught that is one-sided and doesn't get called out.
  - metalliqaz 7y ago
    If you think that the way the president primarily is affecting minority groups is via First Step Act and Opportunity Zones, then you are either confused or willfully ignorant. His "me first" M.O. is based on stoking racial grievances and animosity in his base. His actual economic policies align exactly with the "swamp": funnel money to the wealthy. It sounds to me, frankly, that you are simply seeing what you want to see.
    - cwperkins 7y ago
      I'd love to engage in any debate because ultimately I think that having diverse viewpoints ultimately leads to the most ideal solution. And not just Diversity of background, but diversity of bias is also important. I think the single most important thing being accomplished at the moment is the rebuilding of the middle class through bringing manufacturing back. It hasn't happened on a large scale yet, but I'm optimistic that the next year will see a big uptick. Building the middle class will be the best way to close the racial wealth gap. I also live in an urban area in a gentrifying neighborhood and it looks like some millenials are opting to settle. I think this is great for integration as well as minorities moving to the suburbs. I also saw research recently that has shown that gentrification has led to incomes in the area increasing at rates that beat the national average which is also promising. EDIT: Why was this comment downvoted without a reply? I want to spark a discussion.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  I don't think this is the case here. I think it means the younger generations are not patriotic - not simply that they don't support the current administration. As a young American, I would rate my patriotism as 0, because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    >because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy. What makes you think that, exactly?
    - gourabmi 7y ago
      Here is some food for thought on that subject http://tagoreweb.in/Render/ShowContent.aspx?ct=Essays&bi=72EE92F5-BE50-40D7-8E6E-0F7410664DA3&ti=72EE92F5-BE50-4A47-2E6E-0F7410664DA3 http://tagoreweb.in/Render/ShowContent.aspx?ct=Essays&bi=72E...
      - asdf21 7y ago
        From your link: >And I feel tempted to put the same question to our American critics with a slight modification, 'What have you done with the Red Indian and the Negro?' For you have not got over your attitude of caste toward them. You have used violent methods to keep aloof from other races, but until you have solved the question here in America, you have no right to question India. As far as I know, there are zero laws that are prejudiced towards native Americans or POC and haven't been in decades..
    - Miner49er 7y ago
      Well, let me give some examples. Citizenship is used to deny people without it participation in Democracy and deny them certain freedoms, for example. Borders deny freedom of movement and are currently being used to lock people up (deny them virtually all freedom) for crossing an imaginary line. Nations create and enforce inequality is basically what it comes down to. They are created and enforced through violence.
- Circuits 7y ago
  Personally, I have zero faith in my governments ability to run the country. There isn't a single person in Washington who I would trust with my car keys let alone my welfare. I do however realize how lucky I was to be born in the USA and love my country despite all the people in it XD age: 32 affiliation: republican gender: male
- patientplatypus 7y ago
  I’m on the younger side of the millennial group. Freedom and democracy are wonderful in theory but the US has been run by plutocrats since it’s inception. It was literally built on slavery and black people have, today, 10% of the wealth of white people. And you can do anything you want in this wonderful society, so long as you can afford it. And that’s only one group getting screwed over - for 50 years the median purchasing power has held flat or declined. For markets that are easily captured by the bourgeoisie such as healthcare, education, and housing prices have risen to beyond what anyone can reasonably pay. Technocrats are worried that my generation is having fewer children because we’re perpetually in debt and have a hard enough time taking care of ourselves. So you see? The teams have changed, but its the same old game of who’s getting kicked and who’s doing the kicking. That’s what I think of the uniquely American delusion of freedom and democracy, thanks for asking.
  - Baeocystin 7y ago
    I'm someone who spent their childhood in a newly Communist state. We got to watch anyone with an education have everything they had stolen, then rewarded with either a bullet to the head or strict fealty to the party line. Oddly enough, the new commissars seemed quite comfortable in the homes of those they killed. America, warts and all, has a superior system. That doesn't mean there aren't real problems here. It just means that you haven't experienced a true void of civil law. I do not think you would care for it much.
    - patientplatypus 7y ago
      We will experience it soon unfortunately.
- monkeyodeath 7y ago
  The poll mentions "patriotism", not "nationalism", and I think those are two different things. "Nationalism" increasingly refers to an exclusivist mindset, whereas "patriotism" at least used to be more "pride in one's country". Older people grew up during the Cold War, when the USA perceived itself as a bulwark of freedom and democracy in a world of opaque, totalitarian regimes, and when the country was further ahead than most of the rest of the world in development. These days, a lot of the rest of the world has caught up, and a lot of younger Americans feel discouraged about the state of democracy in their own country. We aren't at the vanguard of freedom and functional government anymore. Plus, over the past few decades, "patriotism" has been increasingly associated with flag/anthem worship, military boosting, and a kind of rah-rah "USA! USA!" attitude that has little to do with freedom and democracy. It's been turned into a marketing tool and a cudgel that right-wing political groups have used against their opponents since the Vietnam War.
spamizbad 7y ago
A person interviewed in the article touches on it, but it's not surprising that the sort of patriotism espoused by older generations, much of which is performative, superficial, and one might even say "virtue signaling", has fallen out of favor with those under-40.
julienreszka 7y ago
"WSJ/NBC News telephone poll conducted of 1,000 adults from Aug. 10–14; margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points" This is all I need to know that this study doesn't have any worth. The required sample size for statistical significance is at least 8 times larger than this.
- inimino 7y ago
  > This is all I need to know Perhaps you should update your understanding of how polls work and are to be interpreted... if you think you understand statistics better than the WSJ, consider that you might be mistaken.
  - julienreszka 7y ago
    The WSJ is grossly incompetent when it comes to polling. https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G_20161106085936.jpg https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G... https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-trump-by-4-points-in-latest-poll-1478440818 https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-tr... Not only the sample size is wrong but also the method. Telephone polling is totally inadequate today. Most people ignore phone calls.
    - inimino 7y ago
      Most people don't understand Bayesian reasoning either, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. If the polls have no value to you, then you lack the framework to interpret them.
      - julienreszka 7y ago
        The polls are worthless because not representative why is it so hard to understand?
cwperkins 7y ago
Interesting to see how they mention Old Democrats are closer in value to Young Republicans. I highly suspected this, but its nice to have data.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  It’s largely why candidates like Biden are so popular; he’s pulling a large number of votes from republican defectors that weren’t on the evangelical train. The centrist wing of the Democratic Party has become much, much more conservative since W. took office.
rubicon33 7y ago
I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I believe some higher-being may exist? Sure. Do I believe in an afterlife? No, I don't think anything points to that existing. Maybe it does, but likely it doesn't. But trust me I understand how this lack of a philosophy for life has sucked a lot of community, and to some extent, love for life itself, right out of it. Children - If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life? Seriously? Why form bonds, and relationships, and become close with people... if only to die and for it all to vanish? Of course since I'm alive, I take every chance to form relationships and bonds. But I don't believe in continuing this depressing cycle. I don't believe in this "system" of pulling someone into the world, only for them to have to say goodbye to everything they've built and everyone they love. I disagree with it at the core of my being, and I've never had a "religion" to help me think otherwise. So yea... having kids, settling down, religion... that's all gone for me.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife
  - rubicon33 7y ago
    How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.
    - asdf21 7y ago
      His DNA continues.
    - rscho 7y ago
metalliqaz 7y ago
> "Patriotism, religion and having children rate lower among younger generations than they did two decades ago" The era of hyper-partisanship, unprecedented wealth inequality, and access to the Internet are going to have that effect. I really don't know what the older generation really expects. Modern conservatism (little 'c', not Trumpism) is really a practice of transferring wealth to the current crop of old people, at the expense of their children and grandchildren. They will get their retirement, because they think they deserve it, even if it means that the whole system will crumble behind them. And they have the nerve to lecture us and lament the withering of "traditional values". Man, screw that. I can't afford kids because I'm paying into a social security system for you that won't be there fore me. I wish they'd do us the same favor their parents did for them: get into the ground. /s, of course. (sorta)
- apta 7y ago
  I see your point, however, this is not strictly a conservative issue (I'm referring to the economic situation). What both parties fail to recognize, or at least to admit, is that the way the economy is setup will always strongly tend to large inequality gaps, no matter if you increase taxes on the very rich, or try to subsidize the poor. The reason is straightforward: the economy is based on interest (i.e. usury). This is a very parasitic, exploitative, and destructive practice that underlies practically all of the global economies, and the world dug themselves into it way too much that turning the ship around will require insane effort. Of couse the first step is to admit the situation, which I'm not sure what can kickstart it.
rco8786 7y ago
33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way we were doing it. Then I started traveling and actually experiencing the rest of the world, and all of those things just faded away. I'm still an American - I love the 4th of July and believe in our country's future. I just don't subscribe to the notion that the USA is best and that I should be proud of it no matter what, or that American's are somehow special relative to anyone else.
- asdf21 7y ago
  We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.
  - paulsutter 7y ago
    Having lived in Japan I assure you that you're mistaken. Have you travelled? EDIT: I'm fine with a search by Japanese police, yet I would never answer a question asked by a policeman in the US except through a lawyer. What does that say about civil liberties?
    - asdf21 7y ago
      Sure Japan is not nearly as large, and has basically zero ethnic diversity, but it's probably the next closet thing. Did you notice how many higher population countries you passed up to get there..? - China - India - Indonesia - Brazil - Pakistan - Nigeria - Bangladesh - Russia - Mexico
    - jdsully 7y ago
      Funny you mentioned Japan. All the travel videos I see warn you the police can (and will) question you, search your pockets, etc. And can detain you at the police station for merely being suspicious (so you better answer when they ask!). It doesn’t sound like a great place for civil liberties.
sys_64738 7y ago
America is becoming more socialist.
pnathan 7y ago
In the circles I watch and hang around, we've moved from a cynical nihilism about government (nothing matters, elites always win) to a reckoning that we have to invest time and energy in our governance to get it to work for us. That age band is the 30-40 year olds, with a smattering of older and younger. I would say we have gotten more idealistic, but also more pragmatic. We like the ideals, we recognize that the country coasted when we were younger, now it's time to take up the burden that the older generations didn't. Things aren't going to just happen with a march here or a slogan there. We need to invest ourselves, and this seems to be broadly understood. Regarding religion - no observer is going to be surprised that religion is collapsing in the US. No one should be surprised. I think we have some curious turns ahead there, but I'll defer those to a theological/religious studies audience. And, of course, kids relates to the economic environment and the state of the parents' mental health. If you're worried about providing for yourself and you're a responsible human being, you are not going to have kids, because you know you nee to provide for them too.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  I flip flop back and forth.... I'm encouraged by the Blue Wave and AOC, and the rise of Bernie/Warren, but at the same time I see corporations and Super PAC's becoming more and more powerful in this country. I do like what RiseUp is doing with anti-corruption campaigns across America. Ending the revolving door of money in politics I think is the surest way towards a more fair government. I'd much rather have a farmer or astronaut or scientist as President who was given 10 million for advertising and not allowed to fundraise as was all his opponents than a system where the person with the most money wins. Even though Sanders is very good at fundraising and grassroots fundraising on the left has skyrocketed, we can't always count on that being the case. As I said I flop back and forth, I'm encouraged, but at the same time I feel like things are desparate in America. I freelance and I have gone through periods of poverty when I have trouble finding clients. I'm in one right now, sadly -- it also coincides with my periods of depression, I'm pretty sure the depression is stress caused, and I've done extensive therapy to learn coping mechanisms but I still feel the pain coming on a few times a day lately. I think I'll totally drop cynicism about politics when we get a real progressive in the Oval office, or if Biden doesn't win and Warren or Bernie does. Just the fact of the progressives beating the establishment would totally lift my spirits and resolve. I'm hopeful that we do see more and more progressives, and intellectuals run in 2020 and win. Guess we'll need to wait and see how things pan out.
monkeyodeath 7y ago
Religion, at least the dominant Evangelical Christian kind, has gotten increasingly politicized, to the point where religious == conservative (note I'm using JS-style "truthy" here, I know that this isn't a blanket case). So it's not surprising that young Americans, who are generally liberal, don't consider themselves religious. And as for having kids? Not only is it more expensive and stressful than ever before, but we're slowly moving away from the mindset that a woman's primary purpose is to raise children. That, and I think a lot of folks have started to reflect on how having kids didn't seem to make their unhappy parents any more fulfilled.
- devoply 7y ago
  Religion was always political it's just a modern slight of hand to label the prevailing ideology secular and dis-empower the clergy. Does not seem to have worked very long though. I think we'll see more political moves by religion and those who choose to embrace it moving forward.
sysbin 7y ago
I can only write from my own anecdotal personal experiences. The USA is still more so religious than Canada from my interactions with young people in both countries. Although, the perception that religion is comparable to a cult is rising among the shared expressed views of religion compared to ten years ago. I don't necessarily think religion is bad for society if we educate people to be closer to understanding reality by conclusive science than the whims of faith-based thoughts. In any case I definitely witness patriotism decreasing because the young generation has been having a difficult time in society financially speaking and compared to their parents. I would think most young people feel betrayed that quality of life is somewhat being stolen from them. This brings me to another assumption that desires to have kids is being grossly influenced by lack of finances and subconsciously. Everyone I know is opting in for a dog or a cat and so they can try to afford a mortgage for a home. Build more homes to offset the cost!
gremlinsinc 7y ago
This is refreshing actually. I used to be mormon and am now 95% agnostic (I don't believe in deity being required for an afterlife, but I believe there's a 5-10% chance of something else post-death). I actually had given up on the idea of children as we had fertility issues, and I figured I was okay enough without them, but my wife was adamant so we spent everything we had to get our two little boys. Literally I'm 40 with no retirement, but I have two boys 2 and 8 months old. Before I was kind of iffy on children, but I would not trade being a dad for anything... It's an amazing experience and has opened my heart, treated a lot of depression issues, and helped me become a better person overall. There is love and beauty and inspiration without deity and religion. I'm in awe of the universe and science and all we know about it but all we still don't. It just makes me appreciate the fact more that someday I'll die, makes me want to appreciate every moment because as far as we know we're the only intelligent species, and I'm lucky enough to be born here in this day with the technology we have, have a family I adore. As for patriotism, I used to be patriotic back around 2001 when everyone was 'coming together' because 9/11. But I lost that after I got more and more in politics and see only those with big business interests at heart every get anywhere. Issues that affect the masses don't matter to anyone on top. America's done some horrible things like nuking and poisoning their own citizens and covering it all up. My wife's lost two grandparents to downwinder's which is basically cancer caused by being too close to nuclear fallout. Back in the 50's they just were asked to come out and bring their families and have a picnic and watch the bombs fall. The idea of America a democratic nation with we the people for the people as it's motto would be amazing, but that hasn't happened yet, and I don't see it happening for a very long time.

27 points by prostoalex 7y ago

It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity. The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often identify themselves. I think if you asked the younger generations if they still believed in the principles of freedom and democracy that the US represents that they would be largely in favor of that stance, but feel that the current government is not upholding those ideals in a way that they approve of.

save_ferris 7y ago
> but feel that the current government is not upholding those ideals in a way they approve of. In some cases, the government is actively undermining those ideals. We’re separating thousands of young children from their parents and holding them in horrible conditions in some cases. My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. Add to that gerrymandering, political interference to keep our election infrastructure weak after multiple reports of hacking by foreign governments. Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to.
- lixtra 7y ago
  > My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. > Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to. When do you think it was better in the past?
  - save_ferris 7y ago
    I'm not arguing that there is a better period in the past than what we're experiencing now. But American history relative to the present has no bearing on the severity of the atrocities we're seeing now, no? Are you suggesting that what I've outlined above is somehow acceptable because America has always had black marks in the history books?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    We had better leaders in the past... We've moved the post too far right. Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower even from different parties I think all of them were in support of more support for the people, and I'm pretty sure Eisenhower and Roosevelt at least were both for universal healthcare for all, too bad they didn't push for it back then and get it. We wouldn't be having all the fights about healthcare we have today.
    - mikepurvis 7y ago
      Yup, it's crazy how things that used to be bipartisan no-brainers are now these hugely polarizing issues. Freaking Nixon of all people created the EPA, and look what he had to say about pollution pricing: "We believe that part of the answer lies in pricing energy on the basis of its full costs to society. One reason we use energy so lavishly today is that the price of energy does not include all of the social costs of producing it. The costs incurred in protecting the environment and the health and safety of workers, for example, are part of the real costs of producing energy-but they are not now all included in the price of the product."
uoaei 7y ago
Members of the younger generation (myself included) have little experience with administrations who demonstrate their fealty to the abstract ideals of the USA. We have, with few exceptions, not been led by people who have the US populace -- in contrast to its economy and hegemony -- at the forefront of their minds. NAFTA, and globalization more broadly, and its effects has progressed to the point where the promises of prosperity in the age of unfettered trade should have shown some signs of success at the personal level by now -- and yet, here we are. We see and hear about other parts of the world which are harmed by these policies. The authorities on the matter, however, explain it away by pointing at GDP growth curves. But these great results aren't reflected in our lives: burdened by debt and historically low net worths, we've lost faith in those who came before us who keep telling us it's all part of the game. Not so if we were born 70 years ago. To a large extent, I'd say that this has resulted in a cynical and rather extreme position of "actions speak louder than words". Those who represent the USA, being elected officials in keeping with the mythos of the modern representative democracy, are doing a poor job of showing their decency, if there is any hidden inside to begin with. The notable exception is of course Bernie Sanders, who, even if somewhat ineffective during his time in office, was and is steadfast, honest, and genuinely caring about the people individually and as a whole. He demonstrates his alignment with the people's needs far more than anyone else in the political field today, even as hamstrung as he was, aside from maybe Elizabeth Warren. The rest are opportunists, lying through their teeth and brushing off serious blemishes on their record to their own detriment. See: Bernie's policy platforms 4 years ago and how much is reflected in nearly all candidates' platforms today. We're pretty peeved that this blatant deceit is lost on the older generations. From our (my) perspective, the USA has always been shoddy and the people haven't cared about grave injustices as long as their lot in life is stable. Only a few shining stars have risen in those 250-ish years that have made any real progress on ethical issues.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  > Not so if we were born 70 years ago. Really? That means growing up during late 60's, 70's, 80's. Vietnam, Watergate, trickle-down economics, ...
  - 7y ago
cwperkins 7y ago
With all due respect, I did not vote for the president but now find myself more aligned with the Republicans than any 2020 Democrat. Its a smear that they are anti-Diversity. A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of power. All are sympathetic to historical injustices and see the President doing things like First Step Act and Opportunity Zones as legislation that disproportionately benefits minority groups, but does not detract from other groups. I think he's brash and unpolite, but a lot of people I know see this as fighting back against an onslaught that is one-sided and doesn't get called out.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  If you think that the way the president primarily is affecting minority groups is via First Step Act and Opportunity Zones, then you are either confused or willfully ignorant. His "me first" M.O. is based on stoking racial grievances and animosity in his base. His actual economic policies align exactly with the "swamp": funnel money to the wealthy. It sounds to me, frankly, that you are simply seeing what you want to see.
  - cwperkins 7y ago
    I'd love to engage in any debate because ultimately I think that having diverse viewpoints ultimately leads to the most ideal solution. And not just Diversity of background, but diversity of bias is also important. I think the single most important thing being accomplished at the moment is the rebuilding of the middle class through bringing manufacturing back. It hasn't happened on a large scale yet, but I'm optimistic that the next year will see a big uptick. Building the middle class will be the best way to close the racial wealth gap. I also live in an urban area in a gentrifying neighborhood and it looks like some millenials are opting to settle. I think this is great for integration as well as minorities moving to the suburbs. I also saw research recently that has shown that gentrification has led to incomes in the area increasing at rates that beat the national average which is also promising. EDIT: Why was this comment downvoted without a reply? I want to spark a discussion.
Miner49er 7y ago
I don't think this is the case here. I think it means the younger generations are not patriotic - not simply that they don't support the current administration. As a young American, I would rate my patriotism as 0, because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy.
- asdf21 7y ago
  >because Nationalism is antithetical to the ideas of Liberty and Democracy. What makes you think that, exactly?
  - gourabmi 7y ago
    Here is some food for thought on that subject http://tagoreweb.in/Render/ShowContent.aspx?ct=Essays&bi=72EE92F5-BE50-40D7-8E6E-0F7410664DA3&ti=72EE92F5-BE50-4A47-2E6E-0F7410664DA3 http://tagoreweb.in/Render/ShowContent.aspx?ct=Essays&bi=72E...
    - asdf21 7y ago
      From your link: >And I feel tempted to put the same question to our American critics with a slight modification, 'What have you done with the Red Indian and the Negro?' For you have not got over your attitude of caste toward them. You have used violent methods to keep aloof from other races, but until you have solved the question here in America, you have no right to question India. As far as I know, there are zero laws that are prejudiced towards native Americans or POC and haven't been in decades..
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    Well, let me give some examples. Citizenship is used to deny people without it participation in Democracy and deny them certain freedoms, for example. Borders deny freedom of movement and are currently being used to lock people up (deny them virtually all freedom) for crossing an imaginary line. Nations create and enforce inequality is basically what it comes down to. They are created and enforced through violence.
Circuits 7y ago
Personally, I have zero faith in my governments ability to run the country. There isn't a single person in Washington who I would trust with my car keys let alone my welfare. I do however realize how lucky I was to be born in the USA and love my country despite all the people in it XD age: 32 affiliation: republican gender: male
patientplatypus 7y ago
I’m on the younger side of the millennial group. Freedom and democracy are wonderful in theory but the US has been run by plutocrats since it’s inception. It was literally built on slavery and black people have, today, 10% of the wealth of white people. And you can do anything you want in this wonderful society, so long as you can afford it. And that’s only one group getting screwed over - for 50 years the median purchasing power has held flat or declined. For markets that are easily captured by the bourgeoisie such as healthcare, education, and housing prices have risen to beyond what anyone can reasonably pay. Technocrats are worried that my generation is having fewer children because we’re perpetually in debt and have a hard enough time taking care of ourselves. So you see? The teams have changed, but its the same old game of who’s getting kicked and who’s doing the kicking. That’s what I think of the uniquely American delusion of freedom and democracy, thanks for asking.
- Baeocystin 7y ago
  I'm someone who spent their childhood in a newly Communist state. We got to watch anyone with an education have everything they had stolen, then rewarded with either a bullet to the head or strict fealty to the party line. Oddly enough, the new commissars seemed quite comfortable in the homes of those they killed. America, warts and all, has a superior system. That doesn't mean there aren't real problems here. It just means that you haven't experienced a true void of civil law. I do not think you would care for it much.
  - patientplatypus 7y ago
    We will experience it soon unfortunately.
monkeyodeath 7y ago
The poll mentions "patriotism", not "nationalism", and I think those are two different things. "Nationalism" increasingly refers to an exclusivist mindset, whereas "patriotism" at least used to be more "pride in one's country". Older people grew up during the Cold War, when the USA perceived itself as a bulwark of freedom and democracy in a world of opaque, totalitarian regimes, and when the country was further ahead than most of the rest of the world in development. These days, a lot of the rest of the world has caught up, and a lot of younger Americans feel discouraged about the state of democracy in their own country. We aren't at the vanguard of freedom and functional government anymore. Plus, over the past few decades, "patriotism" has been increasingly associated with flag/anthem worship, military boosting, and a kind of rah-rah "USA! USA!" attitude that has little to do with freedom and democracy. It's been turned into a marketing tool and a cudgel that right-wing political groups have used against their opponents since the Vietnam War.

spamizbad 7y ago

A person interviewed in the article touches on it, but it's not surprising that the sort of patriotism espoused by older generations, much of which is performative, superficial, and one might even say "virtue signaling", has fallen out of favor with those under-40.

julienreszka 7y ago

"WSJ/NBC News telephone poll conducted of 1,000 adults from Aug. 10–14; margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points" This is all I need to know that this study doesn't have any worth. The required sample size for statistical significance is at least 8 times larger than this.

inimino 7y ago
> This is all I need to know Perhaps you should update your understanding of how polls work and are to be interpreted... if you think you understand statistics better than the WSJ, consider that you might be mistaken.
- julienreszka 7y ago
  The WSJ is grossly incompetent when it comes to polling. https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G_20161106085936.jpg https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G... https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-trump-by-4-points-in-latest-poll-1478440818 https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-tr... Not only the sample size is wrong but also the method. Telephone polling is totally inadequate today. Most people ignore phone calls.
  - inimino 7y ago
    Most people don't understand Bayesian reasoning either, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. If the polls have no value to you, then you lack the framework to interpret them.
    - julienreszka 7y ago
      The polls are worthless because not representative why is it so hard to understand?

cwperkins 7y ago

Interesting to see how they mention Old Democrats are closer in value to Young Republicans. I highly suspected this, but its nice to have data.

save_ferris 7y ago
It’s largely why candidates like Biden are so popular; he’s pulling a large number of votes from republican defectors that weren’t on the evangelical train. The centrist wing of the Democratic Party has become much, much more conservative since W. took office.

rubicon33 7y ago

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I believe some higher-being may exist? Sure. Do I believe in an afterlife? No, I don't think anything points to that existing. Maybe it does, but likely it doesn't. But trust me I understand how this lack of a philosophy for life has sucked a lot of community, and to some extent, love for life itself, right out of it. Children - If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life? Seriously? Why form bonds, and relationships, and become close with people... if only to die and for it all to vanish? Of course since I'm alive, I take every chance to form relationships and bonds. But I don't believe in continuing this depressing cycle. I don't believe in this "system" of pulling someone into the world, only for them to have to say goodbye to everything they've built and everyone they love. I disagree with it at the core of my being, and I've never had a "religion" to help me think otherwise. So yea... having kids, settling down, religion... that's all gone for me.

metalliqaz 7y ago
kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife
- rubicon33 7y ago
  How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife? They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering. When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    His DNA continues.
  - rscho 7y ago

metalliqaz 7y ago

> "Patriotism, religion and having children rate lower among younger generations than they did two decades ago" The era of hyper-partisanship, unprecedented wealth inequality, and access to the Internet are going to have that effect. I really don't know what the older generation really expects. Modern conservatism (little 'c', not Trumpism) is really a practice of transferring wealth to the current crop of old people, at the expense of their children and grandchildren. They will get their retirement, because they think they deserve it, even if it means that the whole system will crumble behind them. And they have the nerve to lecture us and lament the withering of "traditional values". Man, screw that. I can't afford kids because I'm paying into a social security system for you that won't be there fore me. I wish they'd do us the same favor their parents did for them: get into the ground. /s, of course. (sorta)

apta 7y ago
I see your point, however, this is not strictly a conservative issue (I'm referring to the economic situation). What both parties fail to recognize, or at least to admit, is that the way the economy is setup will always strongly tend to large inequality gaps, no matter if you increase taxes on the very rich, or try to subsidize the poor. The reason is straightforward: the economy is based on interest (i.e. usury). This is a very parasitic, exploitative, and destructive practice that underlies practically all of the global economies, and the world dug themselves into it way too much that turning the ship around will require insane effort. Of couse the first step is to admit the situation, which I'm not sure what can kickstart it.

rco8786 7y ago

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way we were doing it. Then I started traveling and actually experiencing the rest of the world, and all of those things just faded away. I'm still an American - I love the 4th of July and believe in our country's future. I just don't subscribe to the notion that the USA is best and that I should be proud of it no matter what, or that American's are somehow special relative to anyone else.

asdf21 7y ago
We are easily the best large country (over 150M population or so) as far as any sort of civil liberties, standards of living, etc.
- paulsutter 7y ago
  Having lived in Japan I assure you that you're mistaken. Have you travelled? EDIT: I'm fine with a search by Japanese police, yet I would never answer a question asked by a policeman in the US except through a lawyer. What does that say about civil liberties?
  - asdf21 7y ago
    Sure Japan is not nearly as large, and has basically zero ethnic diversity, but it's probably the next closet thing. Did you notice how many higher population countries you passed up to get there..? - China - India - Indonesia - Brazil - Pakistan - Nigeria - Bangladesh - Russia - Mexico
  - jdsully 7y ago
    Funny you mentioned Japan. All the travel videos I see warn you the police can (and will) question you, search your pockets, etc. And can detain you at the police station for merely being suspicious (so you better answer when they ask!). It doesn’t sound like a great place for civil liberties.

sys_64738 7y ago

America is becoming more socialist.

pnathan 7y ago

In the circles I watch and hang around, we've moved from a cynical nihilism about government (nothing matters, elites always win) to a reckoning that we have to invest time and energy in our governance to get it to work for us. That age band is the 30-40 year olds, with a smattering of older and younger. I would say we have gotten more idealistic, but also more pragmatic. We like the ideals, we recognize that the country coasted when we were younger, now it's time to take up the burden that the older generations didn't. Things aren't going to just happen with a march here or a slogan there. We need to invest ourselves, and this seems to be broadly understood. Regarding religion - no observer is going to be surprised that religion is collapsing in the US. No one should be surprised. I think we have some curious turns ahead there, but I'll defer those to a theological/religious studies audience. And, of course, kids relates to the economic environment and the state of the parents' mental health. If you're worried about providing for yourself and you're a responsible human being, you are not going to have kids, because you know you nee to provide for them too.

gremlinsinc 7y ago
I flip flop back and forth.... I'm encouraged by the Blue Wave and AOC, and the rise of Bernie/Warren, but at the same time I see corporations and Super PAC's becoming more and more powerful in this country. I do like what RiseUp is doing with anti-corruption campaigns across America. Ending the revolving door of money in politics I think is the surest way towards a more fair government. I'd much rather have a farmer or astronaut or scientist as President who was given 10 million for advertising and not allowed to fundraise as was all his opponents than a system where the person with the most money wins. Even though Sanders is very good at fundraising and grassroots fundraising on the left has skyrocketed, we can't always count on that being the case. As I said I flop back and forth, I'm encouraged, but at the same time I feel like things are desparate in America. I freelance and I have gone through periods of poverty when I have trouble finding clients. I'm in one right now, sadly -- it also coincides with my periods of depression, I'm pretty sure the depression is stress caused, and I've done extensive therapy to learn coping mechanisms but I still feel the pain coming on a few times a day lately. I think I'll totally drop cynicism about politics when we get a real progressive in the Oval office, or if Biden doesn't win and Warren or Bernie does. Just the fact of the progressives beating the establishment would totally lift my spirits and resolve. I'm hopeful that we do see more and more progressives, and intellectuals run in 2020 and win. Guess we'll need to wait and see how things pan out.

monkeyodeath 7y ago

Religion, at least the dominant Evangelical Christian kind, has gotten increasingly politicized, to the point where religious == conservative (note I'm using JS-style "truthy" here, I know that this isn't a blanket case). So it's not surprising that young Americans, who are generally liberal, don't consider themselves religious. And as for having kids? Not only is it more expensive and stressful than ever before, but we're slowly moving away from the mindset that a woman's primary purpose is to raise children. That, and I think a lot of folks have started to reflect on how having kids didn't seem to make their unhappy parents any more fulfilled.

devoply 7y ago
Religion was always political it's just a modern slight of hand to label the prevailing ideology secular and dis-empower the clergy. Does not seem to have worked very long though. I think we'll see more political moves by religion and those who choose to embrace it moving forward.

sysbin 7y ago

I can only write from my own anecdotal personal experiences. The USA is still more so religious than Canada from my interactions with young people in both countries. Although, the perception that religion is comparable to a cult is rising among the shared expressed views of religion compared to ten years ago. I don't necessarily think religion is bad for society if we educate people to be closer to understanding reality by conclusive science than the whims of faith-based thoughts. In any case I definitely witness patriotism decreasing because the young generation has been having a difficult time in society financially speaking and compared to their parents. I would think most young people feel betrayed that quality of life is somewhat being stolen from them. This brings me to another assumption that desires to have kids is being grossly influenced by lack of finances and subconsciously. Everyone I know is opting in for a dog or a cat and so they can try to afford a mortgage for a home. Build more homes to offset the cost!

gremlinsinc 7y ago

This is refreshing actually. I used to be mormon and am now 95% agnostic (I don't believe in deity being required for an afterlife, but I believe there's a 5-10% chance of something else post-death). I actually had given up on the idea of children as we had fertility issues, and I figured I was okay enough without them, but my wife was adamant so we spent everything we had to get our two little boys. Literally I'm 40 with no retirement, but I have two boys 2 and 8 months old. Before I was kind of iffy on children, but I would not trade being a dad for anything... It's an amazing experience and has opened my heart, treated a lot of depression issues, and helped me become a better person overall. There is love and beauty and inspiration without deity and religion. I'm in awe of the universe and science and all we know about it but all we still don't. It just makes me appreciate the fact more that someday I'll die, makes me want to appreciate every moment because as far as we know we're the only intelligent species, and I'm lucky enough to be born here in this day with the technology we have, have a family I adore. As for patriotism, I used to be patriotic back around 2001 when everyone was 'coming together' because 9/11. But I lost that after I got more and more in politics and see only those with big business interests at heart every get anywhere. Issues that affect the masses don't matter to anyone on top. America's done some horrible things like nuking and poisoning their own citizens and covering it all up. My wife's lost two grandparents to downwinder's which is basically cancer caused by being too close to nuclear fallout. Back in the 50's they just were asked to come out and bring their families and have a picnic and watch the bombs fall. The idea of America a democratic nation with we the people for the people as it's motto would be amazing, but that hasn't happened yet, and I don't see it happening for a very long time.