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You're missing the point - the author says that poverty is relative. Our poor in the US or the EU are far better off than their grandparents were, better off ev

You're missing the point - the author says that poverty is relative. Our poor in the US or the EU are far better off than their grandparents were, better off even than the kings of yore due to technological progress. How much do you think a plantation owner in 1840 would've paid for air conditioning? How much would your father have paid for an iPad?

jshen 16y ago
"better off even than the kings of yore due to technological progress" This is absurd. It's based on the false premise that consumerism equals happiness, dignity, well being, and a fulfilling life. And there is still the problem that you guys are disappearing a whole class of people, a large percentage of whom are war veterans, to make yourselves feel better.
- dean 16y ago
  Despite the unfortunate reference to the iPad, the poster has a point. We are better off than the 'kings of yore'. We have access to better housing, heat and air conditioning, abundant and varied food, easy and affordable access to education and medical care and medicine, electric light, personal transportation, personal security and the list goes on. It's not just consumer goods -- we have more of everything including health and well-being, and most likely happiness. How many people back then (other than a king) could hope to be anything but a serf and tenant farmer in their lives. I think personal fulfilment would have been in short supply.
  - jshen 16y ago
    only if by "better off" you mean we have more material possessions. "easy and affordable access to education and medical care and medicine" Most of your points are fair, but I don't this one is. "we have more of everything including health and well-being" How are you measuring well being? I'll bet a lot of people today, even those that are upper middle class, have equal or more stress. "How many people back then " Why compare america of today with monarchies of the past? Why not compare america of today with other industrialized countries? In terms of the plight of the poor we look pretty bad compared to other modern countries.
michaelchisari 16y ago
I think the author is missing the point: Wealth relative to a previous century is cold consolation when you're facing eviction, when you've lost your job, when your car, hardly a luxury in auto-obsessed America, is repossessed, and you lack health insurance. In fact, the ability to purchase an iPad is comparing a consumer trifle to the kind of precarity the poor live with.
BrandonM 16y ago
My father wouldn't have cared about an iPad. Gadgets are not a substitute for quality of life; they are merely a means of distraction. I would argue that you are the one missing the point. The difference between being rich and poor is not possessions, and it can't be easily summed up in a quantitative manner. The difference is especially visible in the areas of influence, confidence, and security. Rich people have the money and the connections to do pretty much anything they want to, to be able to convince other people to do their bidding. They likely grew up in a home where they learned the proper etiquette to enable them to operate smoothly in nearly any social situation. Even if someone doesn't have the etiquette down, that person can still gain confidence by wearing fine clothing or driving a luxury car. Finally, rich people always have a contingency plan; they don't have to worry about becoming insolvent due to an unexpected injury or loss of property. If you grew up middle class and haven't been rich or poor, you just can't see it. I grew up somewhat poor, and I experienced firsthand the lack of security, and the little bit of influence I had was entirely based on my accomplishments. We busted our asses all summer when I was twelve so that we would have a place to live before we ran out of money. We went to the dentist once in about ten years, and the cure for most of our ailments was water and rest (antibiotics, what?). My dad worked insane hours as a laborer and barely slept just to keep food on the table and a roof over our head. I couldn't be "cool" at school because we didn't have money to buy nice clothes, much less keep up with the latest fashions. And just recently, while seeking work after college, I experienced the awful reality of having creditors call daily, and prioritizing which bills to pay not by due date but by necessity. I've recently started a job where we operate a lot in more privileged social circles. Rich people have country club memberships that allow them to socialize with other rich people and get deals done that are simply impossible for anyone else. We dress up in suits that feel great, look great, and inspire confidence; I had a wonderful time this past New Year with several people I didn't know -- I was wearing an outfit that cost more than I had earned in six months before getting this job. I've been given resources that show me how to navigate parties and flourish in any social situation. I can convince a dude to get on his knees and shine my shoes simply by giving him some money; I can convince my boss (who has written books on security and cryptography) to review and advise my spare-time-work on a new filesystem, partly thanks to a mutual respect that is an automatic result of belonging to the same social circle. Don't kid yourself. Being rich is way different from being poor. I don't see any way that can ever change. Not everyone can get what they want.
jhpriestley 16y ago
In the Republic, Cephalus says this: And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest. I think it is inaccurate to think that people from earlier times would have traded their riches for consumer goods - at least, not the thoughtful ones. The great advantages of riches are freedom, security, peace of mind.

jshen 16y ago

"better off even than the kings of yore due to technological progress" This is absurd. It's based on the false premise that consumerism equals happiness, dignity, well being, and a fulfilling life. And there is still the problem that you guys are disappearing a whole class of people, a large percentage of whom are war veterans, to make yourselves feel better.

dean 16y ago
Despite the unfortunate reference to the iPad, the poster has a point. We are better off than the 'kings of yore'. We have access to better housing, heat and air conditioning, abundant and varied food, easy and affordable access to education and medical care and medicine, electric light, personal transportation, personal security and the list goes on. It's not just consumer goods -- we have more of everything including health and well-being, and most likely happiness. How many people back then (other than a king) could hope to be anything but a serf and tenant farmer in their lives. I think personal fulfilment would have been in short supply.
- jshen 16y ago
  only if by "better off" you mean we have more material possessions. "easy and affordable access to education and medical care and medicine" Most of your points are fair, but I don't this one is. "we have more of everything including health and well-being" How are you measuring well being? I'll bet a lot of people today, even those that are upper middle class, have equal or more stress. "How many people back then " Why compare america of today with monarchies of the past? Why not compare america of today with other industrialized countries? In terms of the plight of the poor we look pretty bad compared to other modern countries.

michaelchisari 16y ago

I think the author is missing the point: Wealth relative to a previous century is cold consolation when you're facing eviction, when you've lost your job, when your car, hardly a luxury in auto-obsessed America, is repossessed, and you lack health insurance. In fact, the ability to purchase an iPad is comparing a consumer trifle to the kind of precarity the poor live with.

BrandonM 16y ago

My father wouldn't have cared about an iPad. Gadgets are not a substitute for quality of life; they are merely a means of distraction. I would argue that you are the one missing the point. The difference between being rich and poor is not possessions, and it can't be easily summed up in a quantitative manner. The difference is especially visible in the areas of influence, confidence, and security. Rich people have the money and the connections to do pretty much anything they want to, to be able to convince other people to do their bidding. They likely grew up in a home where they learned the proper etiquette to enable them to operate smoothly in nearly any social situation. Even if someone doesn't have the etiquette down, that person can still gain confidence by wearing fine clothing or driving a luxury car. Finally, rich people always have a contingency plan; they don't have to worry about becoming insolvent due to an unexpected injury or loss of property. If you grew up middle class and haven't been rich or poor, you just can't see it. I grew up somewhat poor, and I experienced firsthand the lack of security, and the little bit of influence I had was entirely based on my accomplishments. We busted our asses all summer when I was twelve so that we would have a place to live before we ran out of money. We went to the dentist once in about ten years, and the cure for most of our ailments was water and rest (antibiotics, what?). My dad worked insane hours as a laborer and barely slept just to keep food on the table and a roof over our head. I couldn't be "cool" at school because we didn't have money to buy nice clothes, much less keep up with the latest fashions. And just recently, while seeking work after college, I experienced the awful reality of having creditors call daily, and prioritizing which bills to pay not by due date but by necessity. I've recently started a job where we operate a lot in more privileged social circles. Rich people have country club memberships that allow them to socialize with other rich people and get deals done that are simply impossible for anyone else. We dress up in suits that feel great, look great, and inspire confidence; I had a wonderful time this past New Year with several people I didn't know -- I was wearing an outfit that cost more than I had earned in six months before getting this job. I've been given resources that show me how to navigate parties and flourish in any social situation. I can convince a dude to get on his knees and shine my shoes simply by giving him some money; I can convince my boss (who has written books on security and cryptography) to review and advise my spare-time-work on a new filesystem, partly thanks to a mutual respect that is an automatic result of belonging to the same social circle. Don't kid yourself. Being rich is way different from being poor. I don't see any way that can ever change. Not everyone can get what they want.

jhpriestley 16y ago

In the Republic, Cephalus says this: And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest. I think it is inaccurate to think that people from earlier times would have traded their riches for consumer goods - at least, not the thoughtful ones. The great advantages of riches are freedom, security, peace of mind.