6 ms·

Id imagine I wouldn't be welcome in a church or mosque because of my views on abortion.

by astura 7y ago

hprotagonist 7y ago
you imagine incorrectly. it’s trivially easy to find faith communities with many views on that issue.
- lliamander 7y ago
  Respectfully, there are faith communities that hold any number of views without regard to their consistency with founding documents or traditions of teachings. I heartily recommend that for anyone who is genuinely seeking spiritual guidance to avoid religious establishments that do not challenge present cultural norms and mores. However, it is very unlikely that a church is going to keep someone out, especially a non-believer, because of their views on abortion. Church attendance is generally open to everyone. It is participation in the sacraments (baptism, communion, etc.) and leadership that often requires doctrinal commitments.
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    respectfully, that sounds like a fairly mealy-mouthed implicit endorsement of a very specific 19th century form of textual literalism to me. Speak plainly when you state a position, and I'll be happy to return the favor. If i'm reading you properly, you ought to know beforehand that we have probably very different hermeneutics. I would be happy to start on this issue by pointing to any number of long-running (like, millenia-long) ideas on this and other complex moral issues that are littered throughout the many texts of abrahamic faiths. Claiming that there is exactly one intepretation that's valid (which you implicitly do) is a crabbed and limiting way of reading and living pretty much all of the time. On this specific front, my church only recognizes two sacraments, and both are open to all. With regards to challenging present norms and mores, I am happy to agree, albeit in a way that you almost certainly don't mean. For instance: the more of the body of christ that locks themselves to concentration camp gates, the better!
    - lliamander 7y ago
      I had no intention of being less than candid. I was just trying to be concise. Let me see if I can put it more explicitly: > Respectfully, there are faith communities that hold any number of views without regard to their consistency with founding documents or traditions of teachings In the first part of my comment, regarding abortion (which was the subject brought up by astura) I am simply saying that the bulk of Christian teaching is against it (except perhaps where the life of the mother is in danger). This is not some parochial, evangelical fundamentalist position: the Catholic and Orthodox churches (and several different flavors of Protestantism) are in agreement on this. Theologians throughout history likewise concur. That is not to say that there has been no debate, but that debate has generally not been about whether abortion is generally wrong, only about what the exceptions are. Any church that departs from such a strong and consistent tradition of teaching and embraces abortion without reservation is likely in all matters more influenced by the surrounding secular culture than by it's own scriptures and traditions. > I heartily recommend that for anyone who is genuinely seeking spiritual guidance to avoid religious establishments that do not challenge present cultural norms and mores. Here, I genuinely intend this to be more generic advice. The point of being a spiritual seeker is that you recognize there is something missing from the culture around you and you are looking for an alternative - something that is hopefully timeless. > However, it is very unlikely that a church is going to keep someone out, especially a non-believer, because of their views on abortion. Church attendance is generally open to everyone. It is participation in the sacraments (baptism, communion, etc.) and leadership that often requires doctrinal commitments. I hope this is clear enough. Now to respond to your remarks: > I would be happy to start on this issue by pointing to any number of long-running (like, millenia-long) ideas on this and other complex moral issues that are littered throughout the many texts of abrahamic faiths. Please do. > Claiming that there is exactly one intepretation that's valid (which you implicitly do) is a crabbed and limiting way of reading and living pretty much all of the time. You are inferring something that I did not imply. There is not only one valid interpretation for many things. However, some interpretations cohere better and are better supported, and you can only stretch interpretations so far before it becomes dishonest. > On this specific front, my church only recognizes two sacraments, and both are open to all. Which ones? Does participation in these sacraments at least require an acknowledgment of the solemn purpose of those sacraments, or can you just do them for a laugh? > With regards to challenging present norms and mores, I am happy to agree, albeit in a way that you almost certainly don't mean. For instance: the more of the body of christ that locks themselves to concentration camp gates, the better! What events are you referencing?
cannonedhamster 7y ago
We welcome all people and religions in my church. Some people are vehemently pro choice. We're big on coffee time after service. Just look for your local Unitarian universalist church. Every one of them is slightly different and mostly crazy, but we're serious about our after service coffee time.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Do Unitiarians really call it a "church"? When I went to a Unitarian service they referred to the building as a "meeting house" and not a "church".
  - o09rdk 7y ago
    Some do, some don't. The ones I know in our family's congregation refer to it as a "church". I wouldn't be surprised if the pastor referred to it differently in formal public situations but people I know in the congregation call it a "church". There's variability among UU congregations and individuals. It's like any religion in that way, although I think UU is maybe a little more heterogeneous than some.
patrioticaction 7y ago
Churches are scrambling for membership like they are gay bars, you might be surprised what you find!
- sctb 7y ago
  Could you please review the guidelines? The bar for substantiveness here is higher than this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 7y ago
  Emailing us for help with one account while abusing the site with another is pretty cheap. I've banned both. Please don't make accounts to break HN's guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - patrioticaction 7y ago
    It's not cheap. I've had this acccount for a while and was planning to anonymize my use of Hacker News. I also planned on trying to follow the TOS on this or yet another new account sometime in the near future but I don't know about that anymore. I feel like taking a very long break from Hacker News and Silicon Valley in general. I hate this place. I am miserable here. You could probably tell by the increasing hate spiral of shit comments.
  - halpmeoutmk 7y ago
    It's not cheap and it's not abuse. People make throwaways all the time on this site. I made some mistakes with TOS but it doesn't preclude me from being able to use throwaways like the next person. I won't bother you again, I am going to stay away for a while until I can handle this place again.
mieseratte 7y ago
Aside from the fact that there exists a wide variety in houses of worship such that your imagination is off-kilter, it's also worth mentioning that there is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison between a religious-group and a business.
duxup 7y ago
I think you might be surprised about how many churches don't ask / don't require you to share their exact views on abortion.
- cat199 7y ago
  or that would welcome your visit anyway even if they do require it.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    So long as you don't make a big deal out of it. People who a big deal out of not fitting in in a way that most everyone else finds disagreeable gets told to gtfo because they don't fit in but this goes for basically every group, not just religious ones.
nabnob 7y ago
Muslims aren't really anti-abortion the way evangelical Christians are - it is believed that the "soul" joins the fetus four months after conception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion#cite_note-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion#cite_note-1
- inscionent 7y ago
  It is this kind of exactness and certainly about a fantasy construct that makes humans so hilarious.
clarkmoody 7y ago
Churches that don't welcome all aren't really functioning as churches. More like social clubs. And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31-32
- inscionent 7y ago
  Well functioning Churches are social clubs. Fellowship, witnessing and counseling are all found in Christian traditions of worship.
- magduf 7y ago
  They certainly are "social clubs", but that doesn't mean they "aren't functioning" as churches. They're functioning just as their membership wants them to function. Whatever Jesus may have said is really irrelevant; I'm sure they can pull out some other bible verse that supports their hard-line position, and a religion isn't defined by some character in a book that may or may not be historically accurate, it's defined by how the members of that religion currently behave. If a church isn't welcoming to someone because of their views on abortion, you may think that goes against the spirit of that religion, but you're not the authority on that religion, that church is the authority on it for themselves (though they may disagree about many things with other churches/denominations).
ghostDancer 7y ago
Just open your wallet and you are going to be welcome in the ones that didn't welcome you first.
magduf 7y ago
I'm no fan of churches or religion, but actually you'd be surprised. There's a bunch of Christian and other denominations that are really not anti-abortion. The Presbyterians and Lutherans are rather liberal these days and probably don't care about your view on it. Also, the Unitarians will certainly welcome you. They're not all conservative anti-abortion places the way you're thinking. However, I will point out that the liberal Christian denominations are generally dying out these days: the evangelical denominations (who are the ones you're worried about) are the ones adding new members, building "mega-churches", etc., while the "mainline Protestant" denominations that have liberalized themselves a lot to try to stay relevant and get new members are full of elderly people who are literally dying off. Basically, younger people go one of two ways: if they're more liberal, they tend to just abandon religion (like me), but if they're conservative, they instead go to conservative (typically evangelical) churches. Also, this is a US-centric view. Christians outside the US, esp. in Europe, tend to be far more liberal than in the US. If you go to a random non-Catholic church in western Europe and tell them your views, they'll probably be happy to have you. Even super-Catholic Ireland just legalized abortion.

Id imagine I wouldn't be welcome in a church or mosque because of my views on abortion.

by astura 7y ago

Id imagine I wouldn't be welcome in a church or mosque because of my views on abortion.

hprotagonist 7y ago

you imagine incorrectly. it’s trivially easy to find faith communities with many views on that issue.

lliamander 7y ago
Respectfully, there are faith communities that hold any number of views without regard to their consistency with founding documents or traditions of teachings. I heartily recommend that for anyone who is genuinely seeking spiritual guidance to avoid religious establishments that do not challenge present cultural norms and mores. However, it is very unlikely that a church is going to keep someone out, especially a non-believer, because of their views on abortion. Church attendance is generally open to everyone. It is participation in the sacraments (baptism, communion, etc.) and leadership that often requires doctrinal commitments.
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  respectfully, that sounds like a fairly mealy-mouthed implicit endorsement of a very specific 19th century form of textual literalism to me. Speak plainly when you state a position, and I'll be happy to return the favor. If i'm reading you properly, you ought to know beforehand that we have probably very different hermeneutics. I would be happy to start on this issue by pointing to any number of long-running (like, millenia-long) ideas on this and other complex moral issues that are littered throughout the many texts of abrahamic faiths. Claiming that there is exactly one intepretation that's valid (which you implicitly do) is a crabbed and limiting way of reading and living pretty much all of the time. On this specific front, my church only recognizes two sacraments, and both are open to all. With regards to challenging present norms and mores, I am happy to agree, albeit in a way that you almost certainly don't mean. For instance: the more of the body of christ that locks themselves to concentration camp gates, the better!
  - lliamander 7y ago
    I had no intention of being less than candid. I was just trying to be concise. Let me see if I can put it more explicitly: > Respectfully, there are faith communities that hold any number of views without regard to their consistency with founding documents or traditions of teachings In the first part of my comment, regarding abortion (which was the subject brought up by astura) I am simply saying that the bulk of Christian teaching is against it (except perhaps where the life of the mother is in danger). This is not some parochial, evangelical fundamentalist position: the Catholic and Orthodox churches (and several different flavors of Protestantism) are in agreement on this. Theologians throughout history likewise concur. That is not to say that there has been no debate, but that debate has generally not been about whether abortion is generally wrong, only about what the exceptions are. Any church that departs from such a strong and consistent tradition of teaching and embraces abortion without reservation is likely in all matters more influenced by the surrounding secular culture than by it's own scriptures and traditions. > I heartily recommend that for anyone who is genuinely seeking spiritual guidance to avoid religious establishments that do not challenge present cultural norms and mores. Here, I genuinely intend this to be more generic advice. The point of being a spiritual seeker is that you recognize there is something missing from the culture around you and you are looking for an alternative - something that is hopefully timeless. > However, it is very unlikely that a church is going to keep someone out, especially a non-believer, because of their views on abortion. Church attendance is generally open to everyone. It is participation in the sacraments (baptism, communion, etc.) and leadership that often requires doctrinal commitments. I hope this is clear enough. Now to respond to your remarks: > I would be happy to start on this issue by pointing to any number of long-running (like, millenia-long) ideas on this and other complex moral issues that are littered throughout the many texts of abrahamic faiths. Please do. > Claiming that there is exactly one intepretation that's valid (which you implicitly do) is a crabbed and limiting way of reading and living pretty much all of the time. You are inferring something that I did not imply. There is not only one valid interpretation for many things. However, some interpretations cohere better and are better supported, and you can only stretch interpretations so far before it becomes dishonest. > On this specific front, my church only recognizes two sacraments, and both are open to all. Which ones? Does participation in these sacraments at least require an acknowledgment of the solemn purpose of those sacraments, or can you just do them for a laugh? > With regards to challenging present norms and mores, I am happy to agree, albeit in a way that you almost certainly don't mean. For instance: the more of the body of christ that locks themselves to concentration camp gates, the better! What events are you referencing?

cannonedhamster 7y ago

We welcome all people and religions in my church. Some people are vehemently pro choice. We're big on coffee time after service. Just look for your local Unitarian universalist church. Every one of them is slightly different and mostly crazy, but we're serious about our after service coffee time.

freehunter 7y ago
Do Unitiarians really call it a "church"? When I went to a Unitarian service they referred to the building as a "meeting house" and not a "church".
- o09rdk 7y ago
  Some do, some don't. The ones I know in our family's congregation refer to it as a "church". I wouldn't be surprised if the pastor referred to it differently in formal public situations but people I know in the congregation call it a "church". There's variability among UU congregations and individuals. It's like any religion in that way, although I think UU is maybe a little more heterogeneous than some.

patrioticaction 7y ago

Churches are scrambling for membership like they are gay bars, you might be surprised what you find!

sctb 7y ago
Could you please review the guidelines? The bar for substantiveness here is higher than this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dang 7y ago
Emailing us for help with one account while abusing the site with another is pretty cheap. I've banned both. Please don't make accounts to break HN's guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- patrioticaction 7y ago
  It's not cheap. I've had this acccount for a while and was planning to anonymize my use of Hacker News. I also planned on trying to follow the TOS on this or yet another new account sometime in the near future but I don't know about that anymore. I feel like taking a very long break from Hacker News and Silicon Valley in general. I hate this place. I am miserable here. You could probably tell by the increasing hate spiral of shit comments.
- halpmeoutmk 7y ago
  It's not cheap and it's not abuse. People make throwaways all the time on this site. I made some mistakes with TOS but it doesn't preclude me from being able to use throwaways like the next person. I won't bother you again, I am going to stay away for a while until I can handle this place again.

mieseratte 7y ago

Aside from the fact that there exists a wide variety in houses of worship such that your imagination is off-kilter, it's also worth mentioning that there is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison between a religious-group and a business.

duxup 7y ago

I think you might be surprised about how many churches don't ask / don't require you to share their exact views on abortion.

cat199 7y ago
or that would welcome your visit anyway even if they do require it.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  So long as you don't make a big deal out of it. People who a big deal out of not fitting in in a way that most everyone else finds disagreeable gets told to gtfo because they don't fit in but this goes for basically every group, not just religious ones.

nabnob 7y ago

Muslims aren't really anti-abortion the way evangelical Christians are - it is believed that the "soul" joins the fetus four months after conception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion#cite_note-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion#cite_note-1

inscionent 7y ago
It is this kind of exactness and certainly about a fantasy construct that makes humans so hilarious.

clarkmoody 7y ago

Churches that don't welcome all aren't really functioning as churches. More like social clubs. And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31-32

inscionent 7y ago
Well functioning Churches are social clubs. Fellowship, witnessing and counseling are all found in Christian traditions of worship.
magduf 7y ago
They certainly are "social clubs", but that doesn't mean they "aren't functioning" as churches. They're functioning just as their membership wants them to function. Whatever Jesus may have said is really irrelevant; I'm sure they can pull out some other bible verse that supports their hard-line position, and a religion isn't defined by some character in a book that may or may not be historically accurate, it's defined by how the members of that religion currently behave. If a church isn't welcoming to someone because of their views on abortion, you may think that goes against the spirit of that religion, but you're not the authority on that religion, that church is the authority on it for themselves (though they may disagree about many things with other churches/denominations).

ghostDancer 7y ago

Just open your wallet and you are going to be welcome in the ones that didn't welcome you first.

magduf 7y ago

I'm no fan of churches or religion, but actually you'd be surprised. There's a bunch of Christian and other denominations that are really not anti-abortion. The Presbyterians and Lutherans are rather liberal these days and probably don't care about your view on it. Also, the Unitarians will certainly welcome you. They're not all conservative anti-abortion places the way you're thinking. However, I will point out that the liberal Christian denominations are generally dying out these days: the evangelical denominations (who are the ones you're worried about) are the ones adding new members, building "mega-churches", etc., while the "mainline Protestant" denominations that have liberalized themselves a lot to try to stay relevant and get new members are full of elderly people who are literally dying off. Basically, younger people go one of two ways: if they're more liberal, they tend to just abandon religion (like me), but if they're conservative, they instead go to conservative (typically evangelical) churches. Also, this is a US-centric view. Christians outside the US, esp. in Europe, tend to be far more liberal than in the US. If you go to a random non-Catholic church in western Europe and tell them your views, they'll probably be happy to have you. Even super-Catholic Ireland just legalized abortion.