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I wouldn't attribute this to English or English speakers at all. Imagine I am Czech (I am) and my last name is "Gödel" (it is quite similar, and Kurt Gödel was

I wouldn't attribute this to English or English speakers at all. Imagine I am Czech (I am) and my last name is "Gödel" (it is quite similar, and Kurt Gödel was actually born in what is now Czechia). Such a name has at least three pronunciations which are relevant to me -- the way Czechs themselves pronounce it [Ge:dl], the way Germans do [ɡøːdl̩], and the way an English speaker would [ˈɡɜːrdəl]. Can you really say the Czech pronunciation is correct because I am Czech? Or the German one, because it is a last name of German origin? If so, are all the people in my native country mispronouncing my last name? :-)

aasasd 7y ago
You point it out right there yourself—each language picks a pronunciation and sticks with it. The German pronunciation doesn't come in when you're speaking Czech—for the simple reason that German pronunciations don't fit in Czech. Then, just write down the pronunciation in the system used for the language. A Ukrainian speaker would easily use two pronunciations and spellings for ‘Gödel’, since Ukrainian doesn't have a ‘yo’ letter but Russian does and Russian is widespread in Ukraine. But the person would use each pronunciation and spelling in the corresponding language, not in the other one. English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first, and then people pronounce the word whatever which way since they can't be bothered to look in an encyclopedia, or don't have one on them.
- saalweachter 7y ago
  > You point it out right there yourself—each language picks a pronunciation and sticks with it. I feel this is rapidly turning into an impromptu session of "Falsehoods Programmers Believe" about names.
- mc32 7y ago
  At least in the US when Ellis island was one of the main processing centers for immigrants we would anglicize names. But over time that changed and now we keep the spelling of the original/source language where possible. Of course things become complicated when we go from non-alphabetic languages to English and vice versa. Ex a last name “Guo” can have multiple transliterations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo and getting your English (or alphabetic) name rendered in ideographs or characters can be quite challenging. Often it’s easier to just adopt s local name.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  >English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first It only does that with accented letters that are otherwise shared in a common alphabet and then only sometimes. In your desire for a rule that you like, you are insisting that English is following another rule that you do not like, when in reality it is actually much less simple. English has conventions within contexts, but is more or less allergic to to hard and fast rules. My favourite quote on this is by the writer James Nicoll. >“English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”
- zajio1am 7y ago
  You presupposes that a spoken form is primary and a written form is derivative. While that is true for an origin of a written form, once established, written forms are independent memetic entities, inter-influencing with spoken forms, both affected by different selection and mutation pressures. > English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first, and then people pronounce the word whatever which way since they can't be bothered to look in an encyclopedia, or don't have one on them. Personally, i much prefer people botching pronounciation of my name while keeping proper spelling, than botching spelling while keeping proper pronounciation.
  - aasasd 7y ago
    > You presupposes that a spoken form is primary and a written form is derivative Not sure how much linguistic knowledge you're putting behind the claim that written forms influence pronunciation, but as far as I gathered from my feeble noob learnings, spoken language utterly dominated word development even with widespread print—contrary to folk etymological intuition. This might be changing only recently, with written communication becoming much more prevalent and especially with English-language web going ubiquitously global. E.g. computer terms may be borrowed into other languages through print first. You'll notice, however, that even with the web and text messaging around, people keep making mistakes that depend on them grokking language by hearing and speaking instead of writing and reading—e.g. “their/they're/there,” which is baffling for second-language-speakers who had to memorize each word and drill them by reading.

aasasd 7y ago

You point it out right there yourself—each language picks a pronunciation and sticks with it. The German pronunciation doesn't come in when you're speaking Czech—for the simple reason that German pronunciations don't fit in Czech. Then, just write down the pronunciation in the system used for the language. A Ukrainian speaker would easily use two pronunciations and spellings for ‘Gödel’, since Ukrainian doesn't have a ‘yo’ letter but Russian does and Russian is widespread in Ukraine. But the person would use each pronunciation and spelling in the corresponding language, not in the other one. English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first, and then people pronounce the word whatever which way since they can't be bothered to look in an encyclopedia, or don't have one on them.

saalweachter 7y ago
> You point it out right there yourself—each language picks a pronunciation and sticks with it. I feel this is rapidly turning into an impromptu session of "Falsehoods Programmers Believe" about names.
mc32 7y ago
At least in the US when Ellis island was one of the main processing centers for immigrants we would anglicize names. But over time that changed and now we keep the spelling of the original/source language where possible. Of course things become complicated when we go from non-alphabetic languages to English and vice versa. Ex a last name “Guo” can have multiple transliterations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo and getting your English (or alphabetic) name rendered in ideographs or characters can be quite challenging. Often it’s easier to just adopt s local name.
inflatableDodo 7y ago
>English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first It only does that with accented letters that are otherwise shared in a common alphabet and then only sometimes. In your desire for a rule that you like, you are insisting that English is following another rule that you do not like, when in reality it is actually much less simple. English has conventions within contexts, but is more or less allergic to to hard and fast rules. My favourite quote on this is by the writer James Nicoll. >“English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”
zajio1am 7y ago
You presupposes that a spoken form is primary and a written form is derivative. While that is true for an origin of a written form, once established, written forms are independent memetic entities, inter-influencing with spoken forms, both affected by different selection and mutation pressures. > English doesn't do that—instead, it goes with the foreign spelling first, and then people pronounce the word whatever which way since they can't be bothered to look in an encyclopedia, or don't have one on them. Personally, i much prefer people botching pronounciation of my name while keeping proper spelling, than botching spelling while keeping proper pronounciation.
- aasasd 7y ago
  > You presupposes that a spoken form is primary and a written form is derivative Not sure how much linguistic knowledge you're putting behind the claim that written forms influence pronunciation, but as far as I gathered from my feeble noob learnings, spoken language utterly dominated word development even with widespread print—contrary to folk etymological intuition. This might be changing only recently, with written communication becoming much more prevalent and especially with English-language web going ubiquitously global. E.g. computer terms may be borrowed into other languages through print first. You'll notice, however, that even with the web and text messaging around, people keep making mistakes that depend on them grokking language by hearing and speaking instead of writing and reading—e.g. “their/they're/there,” which is baffling for second-language-speakers who had to memorize each word and drill them by reading.