6 ms·

Consumer-facing question: Does anyone know if the higher European voltage at the socket produces statistically more severe or more frequent injuries among cons

Consumer-facing question: Does anyone know if the higher European voltage at the socket produces statistically more severe or more frequent injuries among consumers? The 240v plugs themselves are designed differently (wider spacing between prongs) which I imagine is partly because they're supposed to safely handle higher voltages…

masklinn 7y ago
> The 240v plugs themselves are designed differently (wider spacing between prongs) which I imagine is partly because they're supposed to safely handle higher voltages… It's mostly because they're supposed to be safe at all, which US plugs really are not. 230V (that's the actual EU voltage[0]) will break down poor insulation faster, but AFAIK that's about it, 15mA across the heart will kill you and neither has any issue with this. [0] ±6% officially, with byes to +6-10 and +10-6 so countries formerly 220±6 and 240±6 are "in-bounds" without having to overhaul their grid in the short-term — therefore effectively 230±10%
iikoolpp 7y ago
The UK plug causes far less injuries than any other plug due to its incredible safety design.
- antisemiotic 7y ago
  I'm not from UK, but having seen the UK plug, I think that the most common injuries it causes would be blunt trauma and possibly stabbings.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Standing on UK style plugs with bare feet is the big risk.
    - Glawen 7y ago
      Been there done that. I concur that it is painful. Morever they nearly always stand with the sprongs pointed upwards
      - arethuza 7y ago
        I assume they have a secondary role as caltrops for home defence or civil unrest scenarios.
- nabla9 7y ago
  Type F and E plugs in Europe have the same safety as the UK plug but they are less bulky. The reason why F and E have similar safety but don't require fuse as UK plugs have is the use of ring circuits in the UK.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    > Type F and E plugs in Europe have the same safety as the UK plug but they are less bulky. I don't know that they're exactly as safe as UK plugs, though they're not far: all three designs ensure the plug is earthed before the "power" pins make contact, but historically UK plugs require an earth pin to be inserted before opening the "power" pin shutters while in type E/F it's just the insertion of the power plugs which force the shutters open. Type E/F plugs also use recessed sockets rather than insulated pin roots but that should not make a difference.
    - tomatocracy 7y ago
      Certain designs of UK extension strips are small/'not tall' enough to allow a plug to be inserted upside down with only the earth pin in, opening the shutters without anything blocking them. This is a potential safety hazard when you consider this is something children might do without knowing the danger. This type of design is technically not to spec but widely sold eg by IKEA. A recessed design means this isn't possible so is safer as this type of misspecification isn't possible.
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    F and E don't have switches on the wall, and don't have the same shutter-safe design. They're likely closer than some even worse plugs, but the UK plug (aside from bulk/cost) really is the safest plug in the world.
    - welterde 7y ago
      The sockets are however not recessed making them less safe than type E and F as it now becomes possible touch the the live conductor if the insulation at the base is damaged (or is completely absent for some cheaper cables).
- lewiscollard 7y ago
  For anyone that does not know why, as rarely as I recommend videos I very much suggest Tom Scott's video "British Plugs Are Better Than All Other Plugs, And Here's Why": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q
- swebs 7y ago
  Are there any actual statistics on this?
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  My British American friends say American plugs are way safer. Because stepping on a UK plug in the dark sucks big time.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    OTOH chances are low that a UK plug will burn down your home.
- kuschku 7y ago
  The UK plug is only better if you assume 100% perfect implementation, and 100% accurate use. If you insert it wrongly in certain power strips, you can directly insert metal objects. And many manufacturers implement british plugs incorrectly, with full-metal prongs, leading to possible electrocution risks. The Schuko plug is much safer in such situations — even if the manufacturer fucks up as much as they can, it still will ensure it’s impossible to touch the prongs as soon as they’re inserted.
- JAlexoid 7y ago
  Until you step on it! It's way more dangerous plugged out on the ground, than being plugged in.
consp 7y ago
According to some friends (hearsay I know) who work at/around the ER the voltage is not going to kill you but the secondary effects are most likely to injure you (with death being the most severe injury). I've touched 240 myself and it's not pleasant but I'm still here. Don't try this with small people (kids) as a sufficient current across the heart will kill anyone, 120/240v doesn't really matter.
Mordisquitos 7y ago
If there's any heightened danger due to the voltage, I'm pretty sure that it is offset by the safer design of the plugs themselves. European plugs fit much more snugly into their sockets and require noticeable force to insert and remove, and their pins are much harder to bend out of alignment than North American plugs. Plugs falling or sliding out of their sockets are virtually unheard of with a standard combination of European plug and socket, but it seems to be a common occurrence with North American plugs.
- mcv 7y ago
  I notice that some USB adapters don't fit in some extension cords because their pins are slightly out of alignment. No idea why they do that, but it's getting annoying. As for electrocution: I can speak from experience, having been electrocuted by my 3 year old son when he wanted to turn on the light while I was fixing it. Really annoying, but it didn't kill me. (There might be some selection bias involved, though.)
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    At least in the UK, any new electrical domestic installation must be protected by RCDs (which protect human life from electrocution in the event of ground fault by disconnecting phase quickly enough) and not just MCBs or fuses (which are to reduce the risk of electrical fire from occurring in the wiring due to too much current being carried). I think this has been the rule now for c15 years so depending on your installation it might have been that that saved you.
    - mcv 7y ago
      It could very well be that one of those saved my life, and I'd have been dead without it.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    > I notice that some USB adapters don't fit in some extension cords because their pins are slightly out of alignment. No idea why they do that, but it's getting annoying. That's intentional for Euro plugs. They are meant to flex slightly upon insertion to ensure contact and holding force, because their pins are thinner than what the socket normally accepts.
sgc 7y ago
More importantly they are insulated on the beginning of the prongs so if only partially inserted there is not a section of live wiring that can be arced.
blattimwind 7y ago
Electricity accidents are very rare, generally not fatal, and the victims are mostly electricians. In Germany there are around 30-40 fatalities each year. In the US there are about 140 fatalities per year, so per-capita fatalities are very much on the same level.
alerighi 7y ago
Typically not, the installations are typically more safe, plugs are safer, and every circuit is protected by a RCD/GFCI located in the main consumer uni, while in the US you have typically have GFCI in the sockets (and even not everywhere), that means that the circuit in the house is not protected (if you were to do some work on a live circuit, which you shouldn't but we all do it, and accidentally touch a wire you are still protected) Consider that 110V is more dangerous in terms of creating fires, higher current means lower amperage, that means that you don't typically have connections that can be bad and overheat or arc and cause a fire. That is the reason because in the US you need to have AFCI while we in Europe don't, because 240V is less likely to cause an arc, also because typically connections and plugs are more solid.
Glawen 7y ago
there is a higher risk associated with 240V, but now all new home circuit require RCD (30mA in France is the norm now together with the big 500mA RCD from the utility). I've done the circuit in my home, sometimes with live current, but I always ensured that I am behind a 30mA RCD. I've touched the live phase several time without any injuries. The injuries happen through second effects, like you touch the live phase while on a ladder and you fall. The way the euro plugs are designed, means it is impossible to touch a live part, except maybe for the one which have no earth, though it is also very hard to do.
the8472 7y ago
These are the plug types common in germany: the TypeF/Schuko [0], which does not close the circuit until it has sunk into the socket and the TypeC/Europlug[1] which has partially non-conductive prongs for the same reason. You can also step on them, the rounded prongs and its general shape means they're unlikely to pierce your soles. I don't know what the situation in america is, but here residual current circuit breakers[2] are also common. [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Schuko_plug_and_socket_annotated.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Schuko_p... [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Euro-Flachstecker_2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Euro-Fla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device#Purpose_and_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device#Purpos...

masklinn 7y ago

> The 240v plugs themselves are designed differently (wider spacing between prongs) which I imagine is partly because they're supposed to safely handle higher voltages… It's mostly because they're supposed to be safe at all, which US plugs really are not. 230V (that's the actual EU voltage[0]) will break down poor insulation faster, but AFAIK that's about it, 15mA across the heart will kill you and neither has any issue with this. [0] ±6% officially, with byes to +6-10 and +10-6 so countries formerly 220±6 and 240±6 are "in-bounds" without having to overhaul their grid in the short-term — therefore effectively 230±10%

iikoolpp 7y ago

The UK plug causes far less injuries than any other plug due to its incredible safety design.

antisemiotic 7y ago
I'm not from UK, but having seen the UK plug, I think that the most common injuries it causes would be blunt trauma and possibly stabbings.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Standing on UK style plugs with bare feet is the big risk.
  - Glawen 7y ago
    Been there done that. I concur that it is painful. Morever they nearly always stand with the sprongs pointed upwards
    - arethuza 7y ago
      I assume they have a secondary role as caltrops for home defence or civil unrest scenarios.
nabla9 7y ago
Type F and E plugs in Europe have the same safety as the UK plug but they are less bulky. The reason why F and E have similar safety but don't require fuse as UK plugs have is the use of ring circuits in the UK.
- masklinn 7y ago
  > Type F and E plugs in Europe have the same safety as the UK plug but they are less bulky. I don't know that they're exactly as safe as UK plugs, though they're not far: all three designs ensure the plug is earthed before the "power" pins make contact, but historically UK plugs require an earth pin to be inserted before opening the "power" pin shutters while in type E/F it's just the insertion of the power plugs which force the shutters open. Type E/F plugs also use recessed sockets rather than insulated pin roots but that should not make a difference.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    Certain designs of UK extension strips are small/'not tall' enough to allow a plug to be inserted upside down with only the earth pin in, opening the shutters without anything blocking them. This is a potential safety hazard when you consider this is something children might do without knowing the danger. This type of design is technically not to spec but widely sold eg by IKEA. A recessed design means this isn't possible so is safer as this type of misspecification isn't possible.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  F and E don't have switches on the wall, and don't have the same shutter-safe design. They're likely closer than some even worse plugs, but the UK plug (aside from bulk/cost) really is the safest plug in the world.
  - welterde 7y ago
    The sockets are however not recessed making them less safe than type E and F as it now becomes possible touch the the live conductor if the insulation at the base is damaged (or is completely absent for some cheaper cables).
lewiscollard 7y ago
For anyone that does not know why, as rarely as I recommend videos I very much suggest Tom Scott's video "British Plugs Are Better Than All Other Plugs, And Here's Why": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q
swebs 7y ago
Are there any actual statistics on this?
Gibbon1 7y ago
My British American friends say American plugs are way safer. Because stepping on a UK plug in the dark sucks big time.
- masklinn 7y ago
  OTOH chances are low that a UK plug will burn down your home.
kuschku 7y ago
The UK plug is only better if you assume 100% perfect implementation, and 100% accurate use. If you insert it wrongly in certain power strips, you can directly insert metal objects. And many manufacturers implement british plugs incorrectly, with full-metal prongs, leading to possible electrocution risks. The Schuko plug is much safer in such situations — even if the manufacturer fucks up as much as they can, it still will ensure it’s impossible to touch the prongs as soon as they’re inserted.
JAlexoid 7y ago
Until you step on it! It's way more dangerous plugged out on the ground, than being plugged in.

consp 7y ago

According to some friends (hearsay I know) who work at/around the ER the voltage is not going to kill you but the secondary effects are most likely to injure you (with death being the most severe injury). I've touched 240 myself and it's not pleasant but I'm still here. Don't try this with small people (kids) as a sufficient current across the heart will kill anyone, 120/240v doesn't really matter.

Mordisquitos 7y ago

If there's any heightened danger due to the voltage, I'm pretty sure that it is offset by the safer design of the plugs themselves. European plugs fit much more snugly into their sockets and require noticeable force to insert and remove, and their pins are much harder to bend out of alignment than North American plugs. Plugs falling or sliding out of their sockets are virtually unheard of with a standard combination of European plug and socket, but it seems to be a common occurrence with North American plugs.

mcv 7y ago
I notice that some USB adapters don't fit in some extension cords because their pins are slightly out of alignment. No idea why they do that, but it's getting annoying. As for electrocution: I can speak from experience, having been electrocuted by my 3 year old son when he wanted to turn on the light while I was fixing it. Really annoying, but it didn't kill me. (There might be some selection bias involved, though.)
- tomatocracy 7y ago
  At least in the UK, any new electrical domestic installation must be protected by RCDs (which protect human life from electrocution in the event of ground fault by disconnecting phase quickly enough) and not just MCBs or fuses (which are to reduce the risk of electrical fire from occurring in the wiring due to too much current being carried). I think this has been the rule now for c15 years so depending on your installation it might have been that that saved you.
  - mcv 7y ago
    It could very well be that one of those saved my life, and I'd have been dead without it.
- blattimwind 7y ago
  > I notice that some USB adapters don't fit in some extension cords because their pins are slightly out of alignment. No idea why they do that, but it's getting annoying. That's intentional for Euro plugs. They are meant to flex slightly upon insertion to ensure contact and holding force, because their pins are thinner than what the socket normally accepts.

sgc 7y ago

More importantly they are insulated on the beginning of the prongs so if only partially inserted there is not a section of live wiring that can be arced.

blattimwind 7y ago

Electricity accidents are very rare, generally not fatal, and the victims are mostly electricians. In Germany there are around 30-40 fatalities each year. In the US there are about 140 fatalities per year, so per-capita fatalities are very much on the same level.

alerighi 7y ago

Typically not, the installations are typically more safe, plugs are safer, and every circuit is protected by a RCD/GFCI located in the main consumer uni, while in the US you have typically have GFCI in the sockets (and even not everywhere), that means that the circuit in the house is not protected (if you were to do some work on a live circuit, which you shouldn't but we all do it, and accidentally touch a wire you are still protected) Consider that 110V is more dangerous in terms of creating fires, higher current means lower amperage, that means that you don't typically have connections that can be bad and overheat or arc and cause a fire. That is the reason because in the US you need to have AFCI while we in Europe don't, because 240V is less likely to cause an arc, also because typically connections and plugs are more solid.

Glawen 7y ago

there is a higher risk associated with 240V, but now all new home circuit require RCD (30mA in France is the norm now together with the big 500mA RCD from the utility). I've done the circuit in my home, sometimes with live current, but I always ensured that I am behind a 30mA RCD. I've touched the live phase several time without any injuries. The injuries happen through second effects, like you touch the live phase while on a ladder and you fall. The way the euro plugs are designed, means it is impossible to touch a live part, except maybe for the one which have no earth, though it is also very hard to do.

the8472 7y ago

These are the plug types common in germany: the TypeF/Schuko [0], which does not close the circuit until it has sunk into the socket and the TypeC/Europlug[1] which has partially non-conductive prongs for the same reason. You can also step on them, the rounded prongs and its general shape means they're unlikely to pierce your soles. I don't know what the situation in america is, but here residual current circuit breakers[2] are also common. [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Schuko_plug_and_socket_annotated.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Schuko_p... [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Euro-Flachstecker_2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Euro-Fla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device#Purpose_and_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device#Purpos...