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So what's the solution for a United Europe? Brexit? EU prides itself to be more than just a "big trade deal".

repolfx 7y ago
Europe should never be united. That's a terrible idea: why would you concentrate and centralise power to such a massive extent? Power corrupts and the EU institutions are already riven with it, the last thing people in Europe need is a massive Soviet-style bureaucracy attempting to control the entire continent at once. Small is beautiful. Let's start by restoring the primacy of the country as an organising unit. Where there are no actual disagreements in policy, they can recognise each others standards and avoid trading friction. Where disagreements over policy do occur, then deviation in those areas should have no impact on unrelated areas. The EU has become a monster that is willing to cut ties with important European countries entirely if they refuse any aspect of its dominion. Relations with both Britain and Switzerland are on the brink, despite both countries trying hard to be best friends with their neighbours. The EU is actually imposing trade sanctions on Switzerland because of a disagreement over something related to trade union law, so I expect it to get much worse in future as the EU continues to maintain near-totalitarian "with us or against us" politics against them. Every attempt to unite Europe under a single government has led to disaster. This time around will be no different. - A Brexit voter
- thefounder 7y ago
  Do you think UK should be split as well? Maybe England should stop bankrolling Scotland and NR? Make England Great Again? I don't think anyone wants the EU to become another Soviet Union. EU believers want a United States of Europe(more or less). Small might be beautiful but it's weak. It goes with the wind. (i.e with the U.S, China, Russia). Brexit will only move UK closer to the US than to the continental Europe. U.S doesn't use the same "with us" or "against policy", right? I heard U.S doesn't impose sanctions due various disagreements either... good luck! You forgot the Suez Crisis so fast!
  - repolfx 7y ago
    Maybe the UK should split - it's certainly pretty painful trying to keep it together. Despite that I would have recommended Scotland vote to remain a part of the UK. Inconsistent? To a point yes, but with better technology, I might have changed my mind. One key problem with fully splitting the UK is there's no identity card system so no chance of an internal border. If Scotland had split from the UK, its economy would have rapidly collapsed because the SNPs economic plans were all based on a relatively high price of oil and the oil price collapsed a few months after the referendum. A socialism driven economic collapse in Scotland would have caused a mass influx of Scots into England with no way to identify them or send them back. With an ID card it can be more like in Europe where you have to register, and there can be some notion of a soft border. Same applies for Northern Ireland. I'm not sure why you think small means weak. Germany would seem to have disproved that notion twice in the 21st century. At any rate, I'm not arguing against military alliances, and given the only armies in Europe that are worth anything are the British and French, the EU will soon be relying almost entirely on France. Or perhaps you have bought the idea that small countries "have" to sign trade deals with bigger countries. That's simply false. Finally, what EU fans want is irrelevant. It's what they'll get that matters. Do you see the EU ever respecting a vote that doesn't go it's way? Do you see any real movement towards putting the EU Parliament above the commission and ECB? No, the "parliament" is a sham and the EU's response to democratic rejection is to ignore the result or try and force the population to comply. You're going to get a new Soviet Union whether you want one or not. The inertial direction of travel is quite clear.
    - thefounder 7y ago
      So you would support a UK split but it's not possible because there is no ID card system in place? Really? You realise that there would be a transitional period, right? I'm not looking to convince you that EU is better than you think but this[1] open letter may help you understand some subtle differences between EU and SU. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/andriukaitis/blog/likening-eu-ussr-not-unreasonable_en https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/andr...
      - 7y ago

Europe should never be united. That's a terrible idea: why would you concentrate and centralise power to such a massive extent? Power corrupts and the EU institutions are already riven with it, the last thing people in Europe need is a massive Soviet-style bureaucracy attempting to control the entire continent at once. Small is beautiful. Let's start by restoring the primacy of the country as an organising unit. Where there are no actual disagreements in policy, they can recognise each others standards and avoid trading friction. Where disagreements over policy do occur, then deviation in those areas should have no impact on unrelated areas. The EU has become a monster that is willing to cut ties with important European countries entirely if they refuse any aspect of its dominion. Relations with both Britain and Switzerland are on the brink, despite both countries trying hard to be best friends with their neighbours. The EU is actually imposing trade sanctions on Switzerland because of a disagreement over something related to trade union law, so I expect it to get much worse in future as the EU continues to maintain near-totalitarian "with us or against us" politics against them. Every attempt to unite Europe under a single government has led to disaster. This time around will be no different. - A Brexit voter

thefounder 7y ago
Do you think UK should be split as well? Maybe England should stop bankrolling Scotland and NR? Make England Great Again? I don't think anyone wants the EU to become another Soviet Union. EU believers want a United States of Europe(more or less). Small might be beautiful but it's weak. It goes with the wind. (i.e with the U.S, China, Russia). Brexit will only move UK closer to the US than to the continental Europe. U.S doesn't use the same "with us" or "against policy", right? I heard U.S doesn't impose sanctions due various disagreements either... good luck! You forgot the Suez Crisis so fast!
- repolfx 7y ago
  Maybe the UK should split - it's certainly pretty painful trying to keep it together. Despite that I would have recommended Scotland vote to remain a part of the UK. Inconsistent? To a point yes, but with better technology, I might have changed my mind. One key problem with fully splitting the UK is there's no identity card system so no chance of an internal border. If Scotland had split from the UK, its economy would have rapidly collapsed because the SNPs economic plans were all based on a relatively high price of oil and the oil price collapsed a few months after the referendum. A socialism driven economic collapse in Scotland would have caused a mass influx of Scots into England with no way to identify them or send them back. With an ID card it can be more like in Europe where you have to register, and there can be some notion of a soft border. Same applies for Northern Ireland. I'm not sure why you think small means weak. Germany would seem to have disproved that notion twice in the 21st century. At any rate, I'm not arguing against military alliances, and given the only armies in Europe that are worth anything are the British and French, the EU will soon be relying almost entirely on France. Or perhaps you have bought the idea that small countries "have" to sign trade deals with bigger countries. That's simply false. Finally, what EU fans want is irrelevant. It's what they'll get that matters. Do you see the EU ever respecting a vote that doesn't go it's way? Do you see any real movement towards putting the EU Parliament above the commission and ECB? No, the "parliament" is a sham and the EU's response to democratic rejection is to ignore the result or try and force the population to comply. You're going to get a new Soviet Union whether you want one or not. The inertial direction of travel is quite clear.
  - thefounder 7y ago
    So you would support a UK split but it's not possible because there is no ID card system in place? Really? You realise that there would be a transitional period, right? I'm not looking to convince you that EU is better than you think but this[1] open letter may help you understand some subtle differences between EU and SU. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/andriukaitis/blog/likening-eu-ussr-not-unreasonable_en https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/andr...
    - 7y ago