5 ms·

Israel was totally created from war, the 1948 war, and the 1967 war.

bsaul 7y ago
the 1948 war happens after the 1947 UN declaration recognizing the partition of the region into two states : one for the arab and the other for the jews (israel). The declaration was accepted by the UN. The fact that this declaration was accepted by a majority of states including the most powerful ones, and yet lead to an immediate never-ending war is the point i was trying to make. To my knowledge, borders always get determined through war, even if you try to begin with a legal procedure.
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  Well considering they the decision by the UN was totally made by western colonial powers, with total disregard for Arab opinion, it’s not surprising it was going to lead to war. The Yishuv expected a war and used it as a platform to expand their territory and execute their plans.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#In_favour_(33_countries,_72%_of_total_votes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... I'm not sure what you consider a western colonial power in this list, but yes indeed, arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time.
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      > arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time. Did they refuse them rights to any kind of state, or refuse them rights to any kind of state on land that was at that time Arab land? It’s not hard to see why a country would be against giving over its own land.
      - bsaul 7y ago
        I'm not sure what makes you think this land belonged to an "arab country". It isn't more arab than turkish, or british, or jewish, or latin, or any other nation that has ruled it in the past. If you only look at the last 500 previous years, it belonged to the ottoman empire (not arab), then to the british empire, and now is split between one jewish state and three arab entities/countries (jordan, what's left of the PA and gaza) Arab population never got along well with the idea of having jews (or anything non-muslim) rule any part of the region, but i don't think the reason has anything to do with sovereign country giving its own land...
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        Synaesthesia 7y ago
        The Arab population had tolerated Jews for centuries, where they even thrived I some countries, the persecutions, expulsions, forced conversions etc were far worse in Europe throughout history. There well Palestinian Jews who had lived there for centuries, well integrated, the spoke Arabic, and there were hardly any issues prior to Zionism.
        bsaul 7y ago
        Although your point of view should be pondered by what the status of "dhimmi" is in muslim-ruled countries (not exactly the same as citizen of equal rights), i don't think you contradict my point. Jews were "tolerated", but it was really out of question to have them be in charge.
      - tzs 7y ago
        It was at the time British land. The British got it from the Turks as part of the peace agreements at the end of World War I. The Turks had it for a few hundred years before that. It's changed hands a lot. I guess that's not surprising given the location. Anyone building an empire in much of Europe, Asia, Egypt, Persia, and the like at some point would be passing by Palestine on the way to some juicy target--might as well grab Palestine on the way.
    - Synaesthesia 7y ago
      The USA, France, South Africa, Canada, New Zealand, Australia ...

the 1948 war happens after the 1947 UN declaration recognizing the partition of the region into two states : one for the arab and the other for the jews (israel). The declaration was accepted by the UN. The fact that this declaration was accepted by a majority of states including the most powerful ones, and yet lead to an immediate never-ending war is the point i was trying to make. To my knowledge, borders always get determined through war, even if you try to begin with a legal procedure.

Synaesthesia 7y ago
Well considering they the decision by the UN was totally made by western colonial powers, with total disregard for Arab opinion, it’s not surprising it was going to lead to war. The Yishuv expected a war and used it as a platform to expand their territory and execute their plans.
- bsaul 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#In_favour_(33_countries,_72%_of_total_votes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... I'm not sure what you consider a western colonial power in this list, but yes indeed, arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    > arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time. Did they refuse them rights to any kind of state, or refuse them rights to any kind of state on land that was at that time Arab land? It’s not hard to see why a country would be against giving over its own land.
    - bsaul 7y ago
      I'm not sure what makes you think this land belonged to an "arab country". It isn't more arab than turkish, or british, or jewish, or latin, or any other nation that has ruled it in the past. If you only look at the last 500 previous years, it belonged to the ottoman empire (not arab), then to the british empire, and now is split between one jewish state and three arab entities/countries (jordan, what's left of the PA and gaza) Arab population never got along well with the idea of having jews (or anything non-muslim) rule any part of the region, but i don't think the reason has anything to do with sovereign country giving its own land...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - Synaesthesia 7y ago
        The Arab population had tolerated Jews for centuries, where they even thrived I some countries, the persecutions, expulsions, forced conversions etc were far worse in Europe throughout history. There well Palestinian Jews who had lived there for centuries, well integrated, the spoke Arabic, and there were hardly any issues prior to Zionism.
        bsaul 7y ago
        Although your point of view should be pondered by what the status of "dhimmi" is in muslim-ruled countries (not exactly the same as citizen of equal rights), i don't think you contradict my point. Jews were "tolerated", but it was really out of question to have them be in charge.
    - tzs 7y ago
      It was at the time British land. The British got it from the Turks as part of the peace agreements at the end of World War I. The Turks had it for a few hundred years before that. It's changed hands a lot. I guess that's not surprising given the location. Anyone building an empire in much of Europe, Asia, Egypt, Persia, and the like at some point would be passing by Palestine on the way to some juicy target--might as well grab Palestine on the way.
  - Synaesthesia 7y ago
    The USA, France, South Africa, Canada, New Zealand, Australia ...