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But what people forget is it is not just "evil big corp" that has cash on hand which will be devalued in such a way. Individuals do too. Pension plans do. Al

But what people forget is it is not just "evil big corp" that has cash on hand which will be devalued in such a way. Individuals do too. Pension plans do. All those will also lose out. Why is there some bureaucrat in an office deciding how much my money gains or loses today? Maybe it would be better to go back to the gold standard.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
There is a penalty for assuming the future will always have value you’ll be able to extract. Perhaps everyone will consider working less when your excess fiat has so little value.
mikeash 7y ago
Nothing is stopping you from storing your savings in gold right now. You don’t need the gold standard for that.
- cbanek 7y ago
  Other than needing to safely store your gold somewhere. I'm guessing there's probably also some insurance you could get to protect against loss? With a bank these are generally "free" with laws that protect deposits.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    If you trust others to keep it for you, there are companies that let you buy gold online that they will store for you, and there are even gold ETFs. If you have a brokerage account, buy some shares of GLD and you’re done.
    - rightbyte 7y ago
      If you don't trust the financial system surely you don't trust gold certificates either. Dig it down ... atleast I would.
      - mikeash 7y ago
        The original comment mentioned the gold standard, which is just gold certificates used as everyday currency. If you don’t trust that sort of stuff then the gold standard is totally irrelevant anyway.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- the-dude 7y ago
  Last week I stumbled upon an article which claimed the Dutch government ( NL ) has the power to claim all private gold in the country. If it is true, I wonder if similar laws exist in other countries.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Similar_laws_in_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Similar_l... and https://www.quora.com/Why-did-it-used-to-be-illegal-for-Americans-to-own-gold https://www.quora.com/Why-did-it-used-to-be-illegal-for-Amer...
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Well I've considered doing it, but I'm here in America where Roosevelt stole gold at a whim ("mandatory buy-back" at $400/oz in today's currency, where the price is over $1,500). I do like the concept, but I'm not confident one of these kooky big-spending politicians won't decide to steal it to pay for some program. Regardless, most people won't do this due to liquidity issues. Why can't we just put the currency back on gold? That's like saying we shouldn't put an embargo on Iran because "Every one could just stop buying oil from her."
  - javert 7y ago
    > Why can't we just put the currency back on gold? Because politicians will take it back off gold again when it suits them. Sorry to be "that guy," but this is why bitcoin was created.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      > this is why bitcoin was created I like the idea of cryptocurrency, but bitcoin is an awful store of value compared to gold. I haven't found a recent calculation for the beta of bitcoin, but it's something pretty crazy. Also, china controls over 2/3 of btc hashing power; I don't trust her with a penny.
      - javert 7y ago
        I don't agree with you, but I upvoted you. Bitcoin was designed to replay gold/fiat money, but definitely hasn't grown up yet in terms of liquidity. That's OK in my book.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Don't be the guy advocating putting money into bitcoin to store value when we know 95% of all bitcoin trading volume is fake [1], the primary liquidity supplier in the space is currently being investigated by the NYAG for being a giant fraud [2] and the price is manipulated to serve exchanges looking to trim short and long positions. It's beanie babies for nerds. Parent said "safe" and BTC is about as safe as a chainsaw made of razor blades with no hand guard. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/majority-of-bitcoin-trading-is-a-hoax-new-study-finds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/majority-of-bitcoin-trading-... [2] https://cointelegraph.com/news/tethers-trouble-with-new-york-attorney-general-will-crypto-cope https://cointelegraph.com/news/tethers-trouble-with-new-york...
deleted 7y ago
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EliRivers 7y ago
Why is there some bureaucrat in an office deciding how much my money gains or loses today? How else would interest rates be set? If you want your money to grow all by itself just because you deposited in an account with an interest rate, how does that interest rate get decided if not by someone in an office? Someone, in an office, whatever tools they use to decide, has to make that decision, surely.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  The maximum interest rate at which the bank is (nearly) guaranteed to make profit off my account balance can be calculated by an algorithm. Running that algorithm once a month and using it to set the bank's interest rate would be an interesting model that doesn't directly involve humans.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > The maximum interest rate at which the bank is (nearly) guaranteed to make profit off my account balance can be calculated by an algorithm This is a good way to blow up a bank.
    - wongarsu 7y ago
      I'm not saying the algorithm is trivial, as it has to take long-term factors into account, as well as the reaction of the market to the new interest rate, and of course add safety and profit margins. It would be quite a bit of work, but it's well aligned with the core-competency of banks.
      - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
        > It would be quite a bit of work, but it's well aligned with the core-competency of banks It is, and it’s difficult. Perhaps fundamentally impossible, given it would have to predict consumers’ tastes and preferences to estimate B2C companies’ creditworthiness. Rates are negotiated instruments, a combination of the return on safe assets today, the risk of that rate changing tomorrow, and the credit profile and availability of borrowers. There is no known algorithm which can robustly balance these variables. If it were discovered, it would be worth billions, perhaps more, and fundamentally change finance. Pretty much every crisis has a story about smart people thinking they’ve solved this problem in some narrow niche of the economy and then being shown disastrously wrong.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

There is a penalty for assuming the future will always have value you’ll be able to extract. Perhaps everyone will consider working less when your excess fiat has so little value.

mikeash 7y ago

Nothing is stopping you from storing your savings in gold right now. You don’t need the gold standard for that.

cbanek 7y ago
Other than needing to safely store your gold somewhere. I'm guessing there's probably also some insurance you could get to protect against loss? With a bank these are generally "free" with laws that protect deposits.
- mikeash 7y ago
  If you trust others to keep it for you, there are companies that let you buy gold online that they will store for you, and there are even gold ETFs. If you have a brokerage account, buy some shares of GLD and you’re done.
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    If you don't trust the financial system surely you don't trust gold certificates either. Dig it down ... atleast I would.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      The original comment mentioned the gold standard, which is just gold certificates used as everyday currency. If you don’t trust that sort of stuff then the gold standard is totally irrelevant anyway.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
the-dude 7y ago
Last week I stumbled upon an article which claimed the Dutch government ( NL ) has the power to claim all private gold in the country. If it is true, I wonder if similar laws exist in other countries.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Similar_laws_in_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Similar_l... and https://www.quora.com/Why-did-it-used-to-be-illegal-for-Americans-to-own-gold https://www.quora.com/Why-did-it-used-to-be-illegal-for-Amer...
big_chungus 7y ago
Well I've considered doing it, but I'm here in America where Roosevelt stole gold at a whim ("mandatory buy-back" at $400/oz in today's currency, where the price is over $1,500). I do like the concept, but I'm not confident one of these kooky big-spending politicians won't decide to steal it to pay for some program. Regardless, most people won't do this due to liquidity issues. Why can't we just put the currency back on gold? That's like saying we shouldn't put an embargo on Iran because "Every one could just stop buying oil from her."
- javert 7y ago
  > Why can't we just put the currency back on gold? Because politicians will take it back off gold again when it suits them. Sorry to be "that guy," but this is why bitcoin was created.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    > this is why bitcoin was created I like the idea of cryptocurrency, but bitcoin is an awful store of value compared to gold. I haven't found a recent calculation for the beta of bitcoin, but it's something pretty crazy. Also, china controls over 2/3 of btc hashing power; I don't trust her with a penny.
    - javert 7y ago
      I don't agree with you, but I upvoted you. Bitcoin was designed to replay gold/fiat money, but definitely hasn't grown up yet in terms of liquidity. That's OK in my book.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Don't be the guy advocating putting money into bitcoin to store value when we know 95% of all bitcoin trading volume is fake [1], the primary liquidity supplier in the space is currently being investigated by the NYAG for being a giant fraud [2] and the price is manipulated to serve exchanges looking to trim short and long positions. It's beanie babies for nerds. Parent said "safe" and BTC is about as safe as a chainsaw made of razor blades with no hand guard. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/majority-of-bitcoin-trading-is-a-hoax-new-study-finds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/majority-of-bitcoin-trading-... [2] https://cointelegraph.com/news/tethers-trouble-with-new-york-attorney-general-will-crypto-cope https://cointelegraph.com/news/tethers-trouble-with-new-york...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

EliRivers 7y ago

Why is there some bureaucrat in an office deciding how much my money gains or loses today? How else would interest rates be set? If you want your money to grow all by itself just because you deposited in an account with an interest rate, how does that interest rate get decided if not by someone in an office? Someone, in an office, whatever tools they use to decide, has to make that decision, surely.

wongarsu 7y ago
The maximum interest rate at which the bank is (nearly) guaranteed to make profit off my account balance can be calculated by an algorithm. Running that algorithm once a month and using it to set the bank's interest rate would be an interesting model that doesn't directly involve humans.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > The maximum interest rate at which the bank is (nearly) guaranteed to make profit off my account balance can be calculated by an algorithm This is a good way to blow up a bank.
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    I'm not saying the algorithm is trivial, as it has to take long-term factors into account, as well as the reaction of the market to the new interest rate, and of course add safety and profit margins. It would be quite a bit of work, but it's well aligned with the core-competency of banks.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > It would be quite a bit of work, but it's well aligned with the core-competency of banks It is, and it’s difficult. Perhaps fundamentally impossible, given it would have to predict consumers’ tastes and preferences to estimate B2C companies’ creditworthiness. Rates are negotiated instruments, a combination of the return on safe assets today, the risk of that rate changing tomorrow, and the credit profile and availability of borrowers. There is no known algorithm which can robustly balance these variables. If it were discovered, it would be worth billions, perhaps more, and fundamentally change finance. Pretty much every crisis has a story about smart people thinking they’ve solved this problem in some narrow niche of the economy and then being shown disastrously wrong.