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I honestly don't understand why the American people tolerate such influence within their borders. I guess the tyranny of distance is at play here - this reserv

I honestly don't understand why the American people tolerate such influence within their borders. I guess the tyranny of distance is at play here - this reservation, as well as the other places patrolled by CBP stormtroopers, are out of sight and therefore out of mind for a majority of Americans. But its only a matter of time until someone gets up on the pulpit and starts complaining about 'external sovereign powers having undue influence over American politics' .. as has been the case with the ridiculous Russia narrative of late. I guess its a matter of having the 'right people' on the 'right side' of history - but frankly, given the choice, I'd rather live on the plantation any day. The oppressed natives of America have, time and again, demonstrated the kind of resilient human spirit that I admire. And now, here we are, with the perpetrators of one of the worst apartheid states in the modern era, bringing it within the US' borders. How do people rationalise this against the "mah Russia' narrative backdrop?

bsaul 7y ago
unfortunately, i don't know of any single border of any state or nation that was peacefully acquired or constituted. I don't think "modernity" has changed anything, no matter where you make it starts. If you want an example, then look at Israel, which is one of the first state that wasn't created unilaterally through force or as a result of war, but (at least initially) through a UN resolution from an assembly of states that (almost) all agreed on the necessity of partitionning the populations living in the area. And look at the result...
- fit2rule 7y ago
  Modern Israel wasn't created through war? I mean, the refrain I often hear from pro-war Israelis regarding the West Bank and the Gaza settlements is, "these people lost the war they started against us, so we have a right to that land" .. Sure, it maybe wasn't started that way, but it sure looks like its been maintained/expanded through war, endless bloody war. Either way, I don't think the fact of Israeli involvement in surveillance theatre regarding Native American Indians is a positive development. I'm very curious as to how this can possibly be justified, given the state of Gaza today.
- LegitShady 7y ago
  Israel, while 'ratified' by the UN, created itself from force by defeating the surrounding opponents who tried to stop it from existing, continued to do so throughout its history with multiple wars against coalitions of enemies, and continues to develop its military deterrents today. A handful of UN dopes sitting on the Golan Heights who have to run to Israel for safety when actual trouble from the region affects them do not deter anyone. The UN recognition is nice, but israel would exist without it.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    Completely off-topic, but : In the post WW2 context, with the cold war looming, having the UN ratify the existence of Israel was a huge thing. Don't forget that both in 49 and in 67 nobody was giving Israel any chance to survive in a war against its arab neighbourghs. At that time, things were very very different from now.
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  Israel was totally created from war, the 1948 war, and the 1967 war.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    the 1948 war happens after the 1947 UN declaration recognizing the partition of the region into two states : one for the arab and the other for the jews (israel). The declaration was accepted by the UN. The fact that this declaration was accepted by a majority of states including the most powerful ones, and yet lead to an immediate never-ending war is the point i was trying to make. To my knowledge, borders always get determined through war, even if you try to begin with a legal procedure.
    - Synaesthesia 7y ago
      Well considering they the decision by the UN was totally made by western colonial powers, with total disregard for Arab opinion, it’s not surprising it was going to lead to war. The Yishuv expected a war and used it as a platform to expand their territory and execute their plans.
      - bsaul 7y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#In_favour_(33_countries,_72%_of_total_votes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... I'm not sure what you consider a western colonial power in this list, but yes indeed, arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time.
        lostlogin 7y ago
        > arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time. Did they refuse them rights to any kind of state, or refuse them rights to any kind of state on land that was at that time Arab land? It’s not hard to see why a country would be against giving over its own land.

bsaul 7y ago

unfortunately, i don't know of any single border of any state or nation that was peacefully acquired or constituted. I don't think "modernity" has changed anything, no matter where you make it starts. If you want an example, then look at Israel, which is one of the first state that wasn't created unilaterally through force or as a result of war, but (at least initially) through a UN resolution from an assembly of states that (almost) all agreed on the necessity of partitionning the populations living in the area. And look at the result...

fit2rule 7y ago
Modern Israel wasn't created through war? I mean, the refrain I often hear from pro-war Israelis regarding the West Bank and the Gaza settlements is, "these people lost the war they started against us, so we have a right to that land" .. Sure, it maybe wasn't started that way, but it sure looks like its been maintained/expanded through war, endless bloody war. Either way, I don't think the fact of Israeli involvement in surveillance theatre regarding Native American Indians is a positive development. I'm very curious as to how this can possibly be justified, given the state of Gaza today.
LegitShady 7y ago
Israel, while 'ratified' by the UN, created itself from force by defeating the surrounding opponents who tried to stop it from existing, continued to do so throughout its history with multiple wars against coalitions of enemies, and continues to develop its military deterrents today. A handful of UN dopes sitting on the Golan Heights who have to run to Israel for safety when actual trouble from the region affects them do not deter anyone. The UN recognition is nice, but israel would exist without it.
- bsaul 7y ago
  Completely off-topic, but : In the post WW2 context, with the cold war looming, having the UN ratify the existence of Israel was a huge thing. Don't forget that both in 49 and in 67 nobody was giving Israel any chance to survive in a war against its arab neighbourghs. At that time, things were very very different from now.
Synaesthesia 7y ago
Israel was totally created from war, the 1948 war, and the 1967 war.
- bsaul 7y ago
  the 1948 war happens after the 1947 UN declaration recognizing the partition of the region into two states : one for the arab and the other for the jews (israel). The declaration was accepted by the UN. The fact that this declaration was accepted by a majority of states including the most powerful ones, and yet lead to an immediate never-ending war is the point i was trying to make. To my knowledge, borders always get determined through war, even if you try to begin with a legal procedure.
  - Synaesthesia 7y ago
    Well considering they the decision by the UN was totally made by western colonial powers, with total disregard for Arab opinion, it’s not surprising it was going to lead to war. The Yishuv expected a war and used it as a platform to expand their territory and execute their plans.
    - bsaul 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#In_favour_(33_countries,_72%_of_total_votes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... I'm not sure what you consider a western colonial power in this list, but yes indeed, arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time.
      - lostlogin 7y ago
        > arabs refused the rights for jews to have any kind of state at the time. Did they refuse them rights to any kind of state, or refuse them rights to any kind of state on land that was at that time Arab land? It’s not hard to see why a country would be against giving over its own land.