6 ms·

Other than CP, is there any other digital contraband?

shkkmo 7y ago
There was an article on HN a while back about how other agencies were having the BP do searches (for reasons unrelated to contraband) so those agencies could avoid getting a warrant. So any criminal activity, not just CP, would be a good reason to not want to be searched at the border.
- wwwigham 7y ago
  The question is posed because according to the article, the verdict is that the border patrol is allowed to perform _manual_ searches of electronic devices, just not forensic searches, even without reasonable suspicion, in pursuit of finding "digital contraband". A term which is notably ill defined and which the EFF would like to see limited to just CP, to clarify. It's probably worth noting that since the search is still _allowed_, information can still be divulged from devices and then used as the basis for a parallel investigation (I believe), provided that information isn't used as evidence. So it doesn't sound like much is practically different, so much as technically legally different - slightly more hoops must be jumped through to convict based on arbitrary device searches, is all.
  - tssva 7y ago
    According to the article the ruling was that reasonable suspicion is required for a manual search for digital contraband.
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    As a practical matter an encrypted phone can't be manually searched. What I'm not clear on is if CBP, absent reasonable suspicion, can penalize a traveler who does not decrypt. Citizens, I suspect not. But unclear for noncitizens who don't have a defined constitutional right to enter. (In the past noncitizens who declined searches could risk being denied entry)
    - shostack 7y ago
      It's an important question. Unfortunately in the current climate it seems that even if they weren't, you'd be left pursuing some recourse only after the incident occurred where they would likely react in a very hostile nature if you start trying to do things like point out what they were doing is illegal.
      - dontbenebby 7y ago
        >they would likely react in a very hostile nature if you start trying to do things like point out what they were doing is illegal. I wouldn't lecture them on the law - a border (or the side of the road) isn't the place to debate what is illegal - that just gives them an excuse to claim they felt threatened. I'd just assert my right to remain silent, let them seize the phone, restore from backups when I buy a new one, and contact a civil society organization when I get back out. (And as a practical matter the phone is backed up and I am privileged enough to be able to buy a new one if needed)
Cogito 7y ago
Well, there are the Illegal Numbers [0] The most well known is probably 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 which was a decryption key for Blu Ray discs, allowing you to get around DRM technology. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number
- rayiner 7y ago
  Note that it’s not illegal to possess anti-DRM technology in the same way as it is illegal to possess child porn. The DMCA circumvention provision does not include “possession” as a predicate act for the violation: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201.
gshdg 7y ago
What is CP?
- DanBC 7y ago
  Images of child sexual abuse, also called "child porn", although the child porn phrase is problematic. https://www.iwf.org.uk/what-we-do/how-we-assess-and-remove-content/laws-and-assessment-levels https://www.iwf.org.uk/what-we-do/how-we-assess-and-remove-c... > We use the term child sexual abuse to reflect the gravity of the images and videos we deal with. Child pornography, child porn and kiddie porn are not acceptable descriptions. A child cannot consent to their own abuse. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/06/open-door-term-child-porn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/06/open-d...
  - lxjum 7y ago
    Pornography is "the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the exclusive purpose of sexual arousal", it doesn't say anywhere that the actors have consented.
    - lucideer 7y ago
      Which would make it a superset, and thus problematic if the narrower definition is what is legally intended.
    - matt-attack 7y ago
      Furthermore there may be no actors at all. CGI CP is still considered CP by our despicable government.
  - ars 7y ago
    You can make a distinction if you want: A child taking their own sexual photos of themselves, with no other person involved, would still be child porn, but not child sexual abuse.
  - matt-attack 7y ago
    That’s preposterous because it presumes there is even a real child depicted. Only a subset of CP even contains real children.
drokk 7y ago
It's illegal to possess digital files than can be used to 3D print or mill firearms or other weapons in NSW, Australia.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- calimac 7y ago
  Austrailians are the modern subjects of globalist powers (i.e., British colonialism)
kart23 7y ago
Could classified material be considered digital contraband? I think if a border agent had a reasonable suspicion that someone was trying to sneak secret material across the border, they could probably search the device.

There was an article on HN a while back about how other agencies were having the BP do searches (for reasons unrelated to contraband) so those agencies could avoid getting a warrant. So any criminal activity, not just CP, would be a good reason to not want to be searched at the border.

wwwigham 7y ago
The question is posed because according to the article, the verdict is that the border patrol is allowed to perform _manual_ searches of electronic devices, just not forensic searches, even without reasonable suspicion, in pursuit of finding "digital contraband". A term which is notably ill defined and which the EFF would like to see limited to just CP, to clarify. It's probably worth noting that since the search is still _allowed_, information can still be divulged from devices and then used as the basis for a parallel investigation (I believe), provided that information isn't used as evidence. So it doesn't sound like much is practically different, so much as technically legally different - slightly more hoops must be jumped through to convict based on arbitrary device searches, is all.
- tssva 7y ago
  According to the article the ruling was that reasonable suspicion is required for a manual search for digital contraband.
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  As a practical matter an encrypted phone can't be manually searched. What I'm not clear on is if CBP, absent reasonable suspicion, can penalize a traveler who does not decrypt. Citizens, I suspect not. But unclear for noncitizens who don't have a defined constitutional right to enter. (In the past noncitizens who declined searches could risk being denied entry)
  - shostack 7y ago
    It's an important question. Unfortunately in the current climate it seems that even if they weren't, you'd be left pursuing some recourse only after the incident occurred where they would likely react in a very hostile nature if you start trying to do things like point out what they were doing is illegal.
    - dontbenebby 7y ago
      >they would likely react in a very hostile nature if you start trying to do things like point out what they were doing is illegal. I wouldn't lecture them on the law - a border (or the side of the road) isn't the place to debate what is illegal - that just gives them an excuse to claim they felt threatened. I'd just assert my right to remain silent, let them seize the phone, restore from backups when I buy a new one, and contact a civil society organization when I get back out. (And as a practical matter the phone is backed up and I am privileged enough to be able to buy a new one if needed)

Cogito 7y ago

Well, there are the Illegal Numbers [0] The most well known is probably 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 which was a decryption key for Blu Ray discs, allowing you to get around DRM technology. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

rayiner 7y ago
Note that it’s not illegal to possess anti-DRM technology in the same way as it is illegal to possess child porn. The DMCA circumvention provision does not include “possession” as a predicate act for the violation: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201.

gshdg 7y ago

What is CP?

DanBC 7y ago
Images of child sexual abuse, also called "child porn", although the child porn phrase is problematic. https://www.iwf.org.uk/what-we-do/how-we-assess-and-remove-content/laws-and-assessment-levels https://www.iwf.org.uk/what-we-do/how-we-assess-and-remove-c... > We use the term child sexual abuse to reflect the gravity of the images and videos we deal with. Child pornography, child porn and kiddie porn are not acceptable descriptions. A child cannot consent to their own abuse. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/06/open-door-term-child-porn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/06/open-d...
- lxjum 7y ago
  Pornography is "the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the exclusive purpose of sexual arousal", it doesn't say anywhere that the actors have consented.
  - lucideer 7y ago
    Which would make it a superset, and thus problematic if the narrower definition is what is legally intended.
  - matt-attack 7y ago
    Furthermore there may be no actors at all. CGI CP is still considered CP by our despicable government.
- ars 7y ago
  You can make a distinction if you want: A child taking their own sexual photos of themselves, with no other person involved, would still be child porn, but not child sexual abuse.
- matt-attack 7y ago
  That’s preposterous because it presumes there is even a real child depicted. Only a subset of CP even contains real children.

drokk 7y ago

It's illegal to possess digital files than can be used to 3D print or mill firearms or other weapons in NSW, Australia.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
calimac 7y ago
Austrailians are the modern subjects of globalist powers (i.e., British colonialism)

kart23 7y ago

Could classified material be considered digital contraband? I think if a border agent had a reasonable suspicion that someone was trying to sneak secret material across the border, they could probably search the device.