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Yes, but Rome isn’t Western Europe. So western Europe’s entire history is a “dark age” before the Age of Enlightenment. (Edit: incorrectly said renaissance ins

Yes, but Rome isn’t Western Europe. So western Europe’s entire history is a “dark age” before the Age of Enlightenment. (Edit: incorrectly said renaissance instead of Age of Enlightenment... the renaissance wasn’t Western European either)

sk5t 7y ago
What's this about "Rome isn’t Western Europe"--have you consulted a map of the Roman empire?
- boomboomsubban 7y ago
  Have you looked at the population spread of the Roman Empire? Rome had people, the rest of the empire was predominantly to the East/South. Rome was Mediterranean, not Western European.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    What is your definition of “Western European” precisely? https://aaron7roberts.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/roman_empire_pop.jpg https://aaron7roberts.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/roman_empi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empi... also shows larger populations in the “Latin West” than in the “Greek East”.
    - boomboomsubban 7y ago
      The first map shows roughly thirteen million people in non-Italy "Western Europe" and roughly twenty two millions in the non Western Europe parts. Wikipedia has an actual population density map[1] that highlights my point. Even in traditional "Western Europe," the population is predominantly Mediterranean. It also has a list of the most populous cities during the peak of the Empire, largely outside of Western Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire#/media/File%3ACartogram_of_the_estimated_populations_of_cities_in_the_Roman_world_in_the_Imperial_period.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empi... edit terrible math on my part.
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        So about half the roman empire (including Italy) was in Western Europe? Of course the Roman Empire extended further (and longer in other regions), but saying Middle Age's Western Europe doesn't include large regions that were previously part of the Roman Empire seems strange to me.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        >but saying Middle Age's Western Europe doesn't include large regions that were previously part of the Roman Empire seems strange to me. No one said that. The Roman Empire isn't Western Europe, and calling the period the "Dark Ages" is inaccurate.
        kgwgk 7y ago
        Novacole said “Rome isn’t Western Europe. So western Europe’s entire history is a “dark age” before the Age of Enlightenment.” That seems to imply that Rome isn’t part of the history of Western Europe at all (and neither did the Renaissance happen in Western Europe, apparently).
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        Though I can't make out Novacole's exact point, I would assume it was more about how it is incorrect to say "there was a dark age after Rome" as the dark age only impacted a part of the still existing Roman Empire.
        kgwgk 7y ago
        I agree. The part affected was “Western Europe”, as opposed to the part of Europe that remained in the sphere of the Eastern Roman Empire.
fsloth 7y ago
I don't know what you mean, but: 1. Roman empire dominion included, but did not limit to what we now refer to as Western Europe... 2... of whose languages are either mostly descended from, or heavily influenced by Latin... 3. ... And where the dominant religion is still the Roman state religion. Which was lorded over by the Roman state church for a thousand years before an angry German monk suggested that this was really weird and could we keep the book and get rid of the pope. So, when you say Western Europe is not Rome, you need to say how it isn't, since there are quite a few things that link this geographic area culturally very strongly to that ancient empire.
- jonnybgood 7y ago
  > when you say Western Europe is not Rome To be fair, they said Rome is not Western Europe, which is true. Rome didn’t have cultural affinity with Western Europeans. Rome’s cultural affinity flowed to the east with the Greeks et al.
- gingabriska 7y ago
  Romans culturally ate less meat and frowned upon their Northern Germanic Tribes who almost always ate meat. They were more frugal in their way of life. The Germanic Tribes were also taller and were acknowledged by Romans as formidable warrior. Culturally tho, Romans were South Europeans and assimilated what we call South Italy and Greece now. They also captured parts of middle east but culturally they never became Romans. >3. ... And where the dominant religion is still the Roman state religion. Which was lorded over by the Roman state church for a thousand years before an angry German monk suggested that this was really weird and could we keep the book and get rid of the pope. There were other Pagan religions at the time and in middle east Jews didn't accept Roman state religion. But then again, people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth so it didn't matter what you were culturally or religiously or tribe/ethnicity.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth I assume 'people' excluded slaves?
kgwgk 7y ago
> renaissance wasn’t Western European Was it Byzantine?

sk5t 7y ago

What's this about "Rome isn’t Western Europe"--have you consulted a map of the Roman empire?

boomboomsubban 7y ago
Have you looked at the population spread of the Roman Empire? Rome had people, the rest of the empire was predominantly to the East/South. Rome was Mediterranean, not Western European.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  What is your definition of “Western European” precisely? https://aaron7roberts.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/roman_empire_pop.jpg https://aaron7roberts.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/roman_empi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empi... also shows larger populations in the “Latin West” than in the “Greek East”.
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    The first map shows roughly thirteen million people in non-Italy "Western Europe" and roughly twenty two millions in the non Western Europe parts. Wikipedia has an actual population density map[1] that highlights my point. Even in traditional "Western Europe," the population is predominantly Mediterranean. It also has a list of the most populous cities during the peak of the Empire, largely outside of Western Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire#/media/File%3ACartogram_of_the_estimated_populations_of_cities_in_the_Roman_world_in_the_Imperial_period.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empi... edit terrible math on my part.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      So about half the roman empire (including Italy) was in Western Europe? Of course the Roman Empire extended further (and longer in other regions), but saying Middle Age's Western Europe doesn't include large regions that were previously part of the Roman Empire seems strange to me.
      - boomboomsubban 7y ago
        >but saying Middle Age's Western Europe doesn't include large regions that were previously part of the Roman Empire seems strange to me. No one said that. The Roman Empire isn't Western Europe, and calling the period the "Dark Ages" is inaccurate.
        kgwgk 7y ago
        Novacole said “Rome isn’t Western Europe. So western Europe’s entire history is a “dark age” before the Age of Enlightenment.” That seems to imply that Rome isn’t part of the history of Western Europe at all (and neither did the Renaissance happen in Western Europe, apparently).
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        Though I can't make out Novacole's exact point, I would assume it was more about how it is incorrect to say "there was a dark age after Rome" as the dark age only impacted a part of the still existing Roman Empire.
        kgwgk 7y ago
        I agree. The part affected was “Western Europe”, as opposed to the part of Europe that remained in the sphere of the Eastern Roman Empire.

fsloth 7y ago

I don't know what you mean, but: 1. Roman empire dominion included, but did not limit to what we now refer to as Western Europe... 2... of whose languages are either mostly descended from, or heavily influenced by Latin... 3. ... And where the dominant religion is still the Roman state religion. Which was lorded over by the Roman state church for a thousand years before an angry German monk suggested that this was really weird and could we keep the book and get rid of the pope. So, when you say Western Europe is not Rome, you need to say how it isn't, since there are quite a few things that link this geographic area culturally very strongly to that ancient empire.

jonnybgood 7y ago
> when you say Western Europe is not Rome To be fair, they said Rome is not Western Europe, which is true. Rome didn’t have cultural affinity with Western Europeans. Rome’s cultural affinity flowed to the east with the Greeks et al.
gingabriska 7y ago
Romans culturally ate less meat and frowned upon their Northern Germanic Tribes who almost always ate meat. They were more frugal in their way of life. The Germanic Tribes were also taller and were acknowledged by Romans as formidable warrior. Culturally tho, Romans were South Europeans and assimilated what we call South Italy and Greece now. They also captured parts of middle east but culturally they never became Romans. >3. ... And where the dominant religion is still the Roman state religion. Which was lorded over by the Roman state church for a thousand years before an angry German monk suggested that this was really weird and could we keep the book and get rid of the pope. There were other Pagan religions at the time and in middle east Jews didn't accept Roman state religion. But then again, people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth so it didn't matter what you were culturally or religiously or tribe/ethnicity.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  > people born in Roman Empire got Roman citizenship on Birth I assume 'people' excluded slaves?

kgwgk 7y ago

> renaissance wasn’t Western European Was it Byzantine?