4 ms·

Space law is the same as that of international waters right? Will that hold up for long or does it need revision. interesting!

akiselev 7y ago
FTA: So if a Canadian national were to commit a crime in space, they would be subject to Canadian law, and a Russian citizen to Russian law. Space law also sets out provisions for extradition back on Earth, should a nation decide it wishes to prosecute a citizen of another nation for misconduct in space.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Seems even childish. Do the Earth nations really expect to have that kind of leverage against potentially hundreds or thousands of spaceships of some mining corporation?
  - mckee1 7y ago
    Yes, just as earth nations currently have leverage against hundreds or thousands of ships of freight corporations.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      And crimes committed on planes going between nations.
    - Haga 7y ago
      Those freightship can't be landed on a major city. Imagine if the iss declared indipendence.. Tea from the sky..
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      I have a feeling they got that leverage because these vessels are still on Earth, and the corporations are still bound by earthly limits. Space is a whole different game.
- gus_massa 7y ago
  I is weird. I expected something like the laws for international waters, i.e. the flag of the ship determines the jurisdiction. In case someone in the (former) Space Shuttle kills another person on purpose, I expect USA to prosecute him/her in spite the nationality of the murderer. Perhaps there are special rules in the ISS because each module is from a different country??? (What happens if someone shots from the Russian module, the bullet goes to the European module and it kills someone in the American module?)
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    > What happens if someone shots from the Russian module, the bullet goes to the European module and it kills someone in the American module? In this case, at least per the article, it'd just be prosecuted under the suspect's nation's laws. If space law were modeled off international waters law, though, then I'd imagine any case law pertaining to crimes involving multiple ships of different nationalities (e.g. an American ship, a European ship, and a Russian ship are bridged together to exchange supplies, and someone shoots from the Russian ship, bounces the bullet off the European ship, and the bullet hits and kills someone on the American ship) would apply here.
  - cat199 7y ago
    I would not be surprised at all if ISS is governed by a specific treaty involving the member nations, which may or may not supercede or be different than whatever would be 'defacto law' in some other hypothetical situation
  - twic 7y ago
    This has indeed been covered [1]: > Let us suppose that an astronaut located in the module of State B shoots a weapon and injures another astronaut located in the module of State C: On which territory did the offense actually take place? In order to eliminate all these practical problems, the territoriality principle was again excluded, and instead the active nationality principle was adopted as the basic rule for criminal matters on the ISS. The "active nationality principle", which is part of the space station agreement, the treaty governing the station, states that jurisdiction belongs to the state of which the perpetrator is a citizen. There is also a secondary "passive nationality principle" which applies if the perpetrator's state doesn't prosecute them, and allows the state of the victim, or which owns any property which was damaged, to take jurisidiction. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270646335_Criminal_Jurisdiction_in_International_Space_Law_Future_Challenges_in_View_of_the_ISS_IGA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270646335_Criminal_...
- Cyberdog 7y ago
  It has long been lamentable that there is nowhere left in Earth you can go to be free of government control. So it’s quite sad to learn that there are already rules in place for deciding what group of self-important fascists get to persecute you should you break one of their rules even hundreds of miles above a point on the opposite side of the glass as their territory.
- Proven 7y ago
  In other words, the Canadians are their State's slaves (you get to keep a bit more of your income but that's just semantics). The same goes for the Americans who - and that applies in this case - must report income and pay taxes on space income earned in any galaxy or universe. Of course this slavery ends like it did for runaway slaves - one they don't return to their plantation, it's game over for slaveowner. This is why only one-way space travel appeals to me.
garmaine 7y ago
No, the modules are the territory of the country that owns them.
- garmaine 7y ago
  Jeeze HN, why the downvotes? I give you Article VIII of the Outer Space Treaty of 1967: > A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/intr... The American module group, where this alleged crime probably took place (as US astronauts use the laptops in their own area), is governed under the USA's laws.
  - ryacko 7y ago
    Interesting enough, each ISS contributor retains ownership. http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/International_Space_Station/International_Space_Station_legal_framework http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Explorat... But the nexus of the crime involves a US person, so the US has the authority to investigate independent of what or where or who allegedly was involved.
Haga 7y ago
Mutineers, like the astrolab crew, will be spacewalked and keelhauled
CraftThatBlock 7y ago
We have cruise ships with thousands of people sailing right now, and the system seems to be working fine.
- DanBC 7y ago
  You might want to look at the reports of women being raped who are unable to get justice because it happened at sea.
  - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
    Isn't that also true for women landside in the nations those ships are flagged under?

akiselev 7y ago

FTA: So if a Canadian national were to commit a crime in space, they would be subject to Canadian law, and a Russian citizen to Russian law. Space law also sets out provisions for extradition back on Earth, should a nation decide it wishes to prosecute a citizen of another nation for misconduct in space.

TomMarius 7y ago
Seems even childish. Do the Earth nations really expect to have that kind of leverage against potentially hundreds or thousands of spaceships of some mining corporation?
- mckee1 7y ago
  Yes, just as earth nations currently have leverage against hundreds or thousands of ships of freight corporations.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    And crimes committed on planes going between nations.
  - Haga 7y ago
    Those freightship can't be landed on a major city. Imagine if the iss declared indipendence.. Tea from the sky..
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    I have a feeling they got that leverage because these vessels are still on Earth, and the corporations are still bound by earthly limits. Space is a whole different game.
gus_massa 7y ago
I is weird. I expected something like the laws for international waters, i.e. the flag of the ship determines the jurisdiction. In case someone in the (former) Space Shuttle kills another person on purpose, I expect USA to prosecute him/her in spite the nationality of the murderer. Perhaps there are special rules in the ISS because each module is from a different country??? (What happens if someone shots from the Russian module, the bullet goes to the European module and it kills someone in the American module?)
- yellowapple 7y ago
  > What happens if someone shots from the Russian module, the bullet goes to the European module and it kills someone in the American module? In this case, at least per the article, it'd just be prosecuted under the suspect's nation's laws. If space law were modeled off international waters law, though, then I'd imagine any case law pertaining to crimes involving multiple ships of different nationalities (e.g. an American ship, a European ship, and a Russian ship are bridged together to exchange supplies, and someone shoots from the Russian ship, bounces the bullet off the European ship, and the bullet hits and kills someone on the American ship) would apply here.
- cat199 7y ago
  I would not be surprised at all if ISS is governed by a specific treaty involving the member nations, which may or may not supercede or be different than whatever would be 'defacto law' in some other hypothetical situation
- twic 7y ago
  This has indeed been covered [1]: > Let us suppose that an astronaut located in the module of State B shoots a weapon and injures another astronaut located in the module of State C: On which territory did the offense actually take place? In order to eliminate all these practical problems, the territoriality principle was again excluded, and instead the active nationality principle was adopted as the basic rule for criminal matters on the ISS. The "active nationality principle", which is part of the space station agreement, the treaty governing the station, states that jurisdiction belongs to the state of which the perpetrator is a citizen. There is also a secondary "passive nationality principle" which applies if the perpetrator's state doesn't prosecute them, and allows the state of the victim, or which owns any property which was damaged, to take jurisidiction. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270646335_Criminal_Jurisdiction_in_International_Space_Law_Future_Challenges_in_View_of_the_ISS_IGA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270646335_Criminal_...
Cyberdog 7y ago
It has long been lamentable that there is nowhere left in Earth you can go to be free of government control. So it’s quite sad to learn that there are already rules in place for deciding what group of self-important fascists get to persecute you should you break one of their rules even hundreds of miles above a point on the opposite side of the glass as their territory.
Proven 7y ago
In other words, the Canadians are their State's slaves (you get to keep a bit more of your income but that's just semantics). The same goes for the Americans who - and that applies in this case - must report income and pay taxes on space income earned in any galaxy or universe. Of course this slavery ends like it did for runaway slaves - one they don't return to their plantation, it's game over for slaveowner. This is why only one-way space travel appeals to me.

garmaine 7y ago

No, the modules are the territory of the country that owns them.

garmaine 7y ago
Jeeze HN, why the downvotes? I give you Article VIII of the Outer Space Treaty of 1967: > A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/intr... The American module group, where this alleged crime probably took place (as US astronauts use the laptops in their own area), is governed under the USA's laws.
- ryacko 7y ago
  Interesting enough, each ISS contributor retains ownership. http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/International_Space_Station/International_Space_Station_legal_framework http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Explorat... But the nexus of the crime involves a US person, so the US has the authority to investigate independent of what or where or who allegedly was involved.

Haga 7y ago

Mutineers, like the astrolab crew, will be spacewalked and keelhauled

CraftThatBlock 7y ago

We have cruise ships with thousands of people sailing right now, and the system seems to be working fine.

DanBC 7y ago
You might want to look at the reports of women being raped who are unable to get justice because it happened at sea.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  Isn't that also true for women landside in the nations those ships are flagged under?