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>A man cannot turn away from sinning just by his own sheer willpower. We are all corrupted since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, and it is utt

>A man cannot turn away from sinning just by his own sheer willpower. We are all corrupted since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, and it is utterly hopeless to try to be "good people" without the intervention of the Holy Spirit. >Quite appropriately so since we are all slaves to sin This to me is terrifying and revolting to read. How can anybody believe this sort of nonsense, and worse: harmful nonsense at that. We are all slaves to some mythological original sin, we cannot improve ourselves, we are doomed, we need a magical force from above to descend and save us all... Completely contrary to my personal ethics, completely contrary to the mindset necessary for progress (nobody is going to save us; there is nobody else, only us; we need to roll up our sleeves and improve our shitty world, because if we don't do it then nobody will, etc). But then again, that's only my opinion. The difference being I upvoted you for sharing your point of view, while the other guy seems to have been flagged to silence...

jessaustin 7y ago
The only doctrine I believe anymore is that of original sin. I've spent too much time among humans to imagine there are any who aren't broken.
- vageli 7y ago
  > The only doctrine I believe anymore is that of original sin. I've spent too much time among humans to imagine there are any who aren't broken. But your belief is that we are born broken, and not that it is the world that breaks us?
  - bobthechef 7y ago
    And how is the world that it could break us? The world is made of broken men. We are born broken, that is, with a propensity toward sin.
    - Klinky 7y ago
      That's just far too simplistic. Child abuse, mental illness, PTSD from traumatic experiences, traumatic brain injury, can all lead to impulsive erratic behaviors. Sin is also vague, and biblical sin is often completely disconnected from the actual cause of why someone is making poor choices.
    - johnisgood 7y ago
      The answer to nature vs nurture is epigenetics.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry. -- Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    The world is us. Everyone here is the culmination of the same eons of evolution. Considering humanity to be somehow separate from the mess that humanity makes is a form of magical thinking.
xamuel 7y ago
I agree that it was inappropriate for the comment I was replying to to be flagged. I suspect the mods probably flagged it in fear that the "Christianity is a slave religion" comment would spark a flamewar. mynameishere's comment wasn't really all that bad, and I'm surprised to see it got flagged.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Flagging is something most users can do. It's not an exclusive mod power on HN.
tomohawk 7y ago
A person who is drowning does not have the power to save themselves. This is of course terrifying. The more they struggle, the worse it gets. In fact, a person in the terror of drowning will, in their terror, drown other people they can get ahold of. The only hope for this person is if they are saved by someone else who has the power, knowledge, and skill to do so. So, the question is, are you drowning, or are you in some other situation? History is very clear that the more power people get, the more they abuse it. If we could improve things on our own power, would it not be the opposite? This tendency to abuse of power and authority looks just like the drowning person. Their own efforts doom those who are around them. The 20th century is full of examples of people achieving absolute power and then killing millions with that power. If you come to understand that you are that drowning person, then the Bible is a great comfort, as it shows that there is salvation, not on your own works, which will never be good enough, but because there is a Lifeguard who can save.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  Drowning unable to help themselves is an urban myth. While you are still conscious, you can definitely do whatever it takes.
  - tomohawk 7y ago
    Do you have a source? Counter: https://www.army.mil/article/109852/drowning_doesnt_look_like_drowning https://www.army.mil/article/109852/drowning_doesnt_look_lik...
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      Article under that link does not say anything about whether people can help themselves or not. It just says most don't scream, because it is hard with throat full of water.
      - tomohawk 7y ago
        Quotes from the article: > Drowning people cannot wave for help. > drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. > Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water for 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs
leftyted 7y ago
> This to me is terrifying and revolting to read. How can anybody believe this sort of nonsense, and worse: harmful nonsense at that. We are all slaves to some mythological original sin, we cannot improve ourselves, we are doomed, we need a magical force from above to descend and save us all... Completely contrary to my personal ethics, completely contrary to the mindset necessary for progress (nobody is going to save us; there is nobody else, only us; we need to roll up our sleeves and improve our shitty world, because if we don't do it then nobody will, etc). I was a raised a "Bertrand Russel: Why I am not a Christian"-type atheist. Your perspective is similar to the one I had for most of my life. But more recently, I've come to view the things you quoted as metaphorical. Looking at them that way, I wonder if they don't contain significant wisdom. It comes out something like: "We are all deeply flawed beings capable of good and evil. Salvation does not necessarily flow from intelligence, 'progress,' or earthly accomplishment". I suppose I think that's basically right. We are fundamentally biological creatures and therefore slaves to our biology (human nature) which encompasses many aspects that we consider unpleasant. Progress ("improving our shitty world") cannot change this fundamental fact. That last part is debatable, but I think it's probably true. Attempts to re-engineer (or re-calibrate) humanity have failed spectacularly. Yes, normative morality changes but people remain basically the same underneath that veneer. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve things. It just means we need to do so cautiously and we ought to remember that, despite everything we have built, we are deeply flawed, biological entities capable of tearing it all down in the blink of an eye. I still view the cosmological claims of Christianity (and all religions) as silly.

jessaustin 7y ago

The only doctrine I believe anymore is that of original sin. I've spent too much time among humans to imagine there are any who aren't broken.

vageli 7y ago
> The only doctrine I believe anymore is that of original sin. I've spent too much time among humans to imagine there are any who aren't broken. But your belief is that we are born broken, and not that it is the world that breaks us?
- bobthechef 7y ago
  And how is the world that it could break us? The world is made of broken men. We are born broken, that is, with a propensity toward sin.
  - Klinky 7y ago
    That's just far too simplistic. Child abuse, mental illness, PTSD from traumatic experiences, traumatic brain injury, can all lead to impulsive erratic behaviors. Sin is also vague, and biblical sin is often completely disconnected from the actual cause of why someone is making poor choices.
  - johnisgood 7y ago
    The answer to nature vs nurture is epigenetics.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry. -- Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms
- jessaustin 7y ago
  The world is us. Everyone here is the culmination of the same eons of evolution. Considering humanity to be somehow separate from the mess that humanity makes is a form of magical thinking.

xamuel 7y ago

I agree that it was inappropriate for the comment I was replying to to be flagged. I suspect the mods probably flagged it in fear that the "Christianity is a slave religion" comment would spark a flamewar. mynameishere's comment wasn't really all that bad, and I'm surprised to see it got flagged.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
Flagging is something most users can do. It's not an exclusive mod power on HN.

tomohawk 7y ago

A person who is drowning does not have the power to save themselves. This is of course terrifying. The more they struggle, the worse it gets. In fact, a person in the terror of drowning will, in their terror, drown other people they can get ahold of. The only hope for this person is if they are saved by someone else who has the power, knowledge, and skill to do so. So, the question is, are you drowning, or are you in some other situation? History is very clear that the more power people get, the more they abuse it. If we could improve things on our own power, would it not be the opposite? This tendency to abuse of power and authority looks just like the drowning person. Their own efforts doom those who are around them. The 20th century is full of examples of people achieving absolute power and then killing millions with that power. If you come to understand that you are that drowning person, then the Bible is a great comfort, as it shows that there is salvation, not on your own works, which will never be good enough, but because there is a Lifeguard who can save.

lostmsu 7y ago
Drowning unable to help themselves is an urban myth. While you are still conscious, you can definitely do whatever it takes.
- tomohawk 7y ago
  Do you have a source? Counter: https://www.army.mil/article/109852/drowning_doesnt_look_like_drowning https://www.army.mil/article/109852/drowning_doesnt_look_lik...
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Article under that link does not say anything about whether people can help themselves or not. It just says most don't scream, because it is hard with throat full of water.
    - tomohawk 7y ago
      Quotes from the article: > Drowning people cannot wave for help. > drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. > Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water for 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs

leftyted 7y ago

> This to me is terrifying and revolting to read. How can anybody believe this sort of nonsense, and worse: harmful nonsense at that. We are all slaves to some mythological original sin, we cannot improve ourselves, we are doomed, we need a magical force from above to descend and save us all... Completely contrary to my personal ethics, completely contrary to the mindset necessary for progress (nobody is going to save us; there is nobody else, only us; we need to roll up our sleeves and improve our shitty world, because if we don't do it then nobody will, etc). I was a raised a "Bertrand Russel: Why I am not a Christian"-type atheist. Your perspective is similar to the one I had for most of my life. But more recently, I've come to view the things you quoted as metaphorical. Looking at them that way, I wonder if they don't contain significant wisdom. It comes out something like: "We are all deeply flawed beings capable of good and evil. Salvation does not necessarily flow from intelligence, 'progress,' or earthly accomplishment". I suppose I think that's basically right. We are fundamentally biological creatures and therefore slaves to our biology (human nature) which encompasses many aspects that we consider unpleasant. Progress ("improving our shitty world") cannot change this fundamental fact. That last part is debatable, but I think it's probably true. Attempts to re-engineer (or re-calibrate) humanity have failed spectacularly. Yes, normative morality changes but people remain basically the same underneath that veneer. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve things. It just means we need to do so cautiously and we ought to remember that, despite everything we have built, we are deeply flawed, biological entities capable of tearing it all down in the blink of an eye. I still view the cosmological claims of Christianity (and all religions) as silly.