4 ms·

I've been wondering, how closely could a future/alien civilization recreate Magic the Gathering's rules given nothing but a collection that included every card

I've been wondering, how closely could a future/alien civilization recreate Magic the Gathering's rules given nothing but a collection that included every card and several (100? 1000?) valid decks for different formats. I imagine they could get fairly close, especially thanks to reminder text. But I wonder how older/erattaed cards or old templating might hinder those efforts. For those unfamiliar with Magic, the comprehensive rules are about 190 pages of 10-20 rules each, plus a glossary/index. On top of that, the golden rule of Magic is that if a card and the rules disagree, the card takes precedence. And there are over 20,000 unique named cards, though a small number are functionally the same card as another with a different name. See this link for the comprehensive rules, but note that the vast, vast majority of games don't require an exhaustive understanding. You can learn enough to play in 10 minutes, though you'll probably need to learn something new each game for a little while. https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-fo...

Marazan 7y ago
IMO you wouldn't be able to come close. I'm not familiar with how much reminder text modern cards have but surely there is no way you'd be able to work out anything close to the timing rules from just cards alone.
- reificator 7y ago
  There are plenty of cards that reference sorcery speed, there's a card that lists all the phases in order and has players skip one, there's the Split-Second keyword which says you can't put things on the stack until it finishes resolving. The fact that the game is fundamentally about overwriting its own rules is why I think it might be possible.
- bsder 7y ago
  Older cards have more expressive text. So, you can probably link modern vocabulary to older vocabulary to explain play and rules. However, there are certain rules that are arbitrary. For example, the fact that resolution order follows a "stack" is specified nowhere on cards.
  - twanvl 7y ago
    > For example, the fact that resolution order follows a "stack" is specified nowhere on cards. There are actually several things that reference the stack. For example the reminder text for Split second ("As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.") and end the turn ("Exile all spells and abilities from the stack, including this card..."). From this we learn that normally people can cast spells and abilities, and that these go onto "the stack". And if you know what a stack is, then the resolution order follows from that.
    - Marazan 7y ago
      No, you only learn there is a thing called "the stack". You have no idea how things get there.
aluren 7y ago
I don't think there's a single person today that knows all the rules. If you want to annoy any judge just ask about an interaction between 3+ cards involving Opalescence and Humility. On top of that the rules get more complex with every set, though they do attempt to cut things down. Fortunately for competitive play you only need to worry about a few hundred strong enough cards or so.
- dodobirdlord 7y ago
  > I don't think there's a single person today that knows all the rules. Knowing the rules won't even save you, the game has undecidable interactions. https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828
Someone 7y ago
I don’t know the game, but skimming https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190823.pdf https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020... (not the best organized of texts, IMO. ‘Normal’ game rules start describing the goal of the game (https://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=171&view=article https://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=171&view=article: ”1.1 The game of chess is played between two opponents who move their pieces on a square board called a ‘chessboard’. The player with the light-coloured pieces (White) makes the first move, then the players move alternately, with the player with the dark-coloured pieces (Black) making the next move. A player is said to ‘have the move’ when his opponent’s move has been ‘made’.” Similarly, the rules for bridge (http://www.worldbridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017LawsofDuplicateBridge-paginated.docx http://www.worldbridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017La...) start ”Duplicate Bridge is played with a pack of 52 cards, consisting of 13 cards in each of four suits. The suits rank downward in the order spades (), hearts (), diamonds (), clubs (). The Cards of each suit rank downward in the order Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2” As another example, couldn’t those “in a Emperor/Commander/multiplayer game,…” sections be grouped by type of game?), there are decks, stacks, sideboards, zones, one of which is the battlefields, and libraries. Presumably, they all behave differently. If those aliens don’t know what these words mean in this world, are they going to figure out what they mean in the game from reading the cards? For example, rule 405.2 ”The stack keeps track of the order that spells and/or abilities were added to it. Each time an object is put on the stack, it’s put on top of all objects already there.” isn’t hard to infer if you know what a stack is, but if you don’t? Similarly, I read ”An effect may state that a player wins the game.”. Chances are those aliens will think that’s the only way to win. Also, that text is full of extremely weird rules (“A card’s name is always considered to be the English version of its name, regardless of printed language”) that, I guess, are impossible to discover from the cards only.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > Similarly, I read "An effect may state that a player wins the game.". Chances are those aliens will think that’s the only way to win. This is vanishingly unlikely, because of the lich-flavored cards that explicitly state "You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life." See e.g. https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46134 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive... . > Also, that text is full of extremely weird rules ("A card’s name is always considered to be the English version of its name, regardless of printed language") that, I guess, are impossible to discover from the cards only. Again, with access to every card, it's pretty well guaranteed that this rule would be noticed. The only reason this rule exists in the first place is because of different cards sharing the same name in non-English languages. I don't know how to look up the foreign names of cards, but there's one pair in particular that I imagine is a real offender here: Roc Egg: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=470619 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive... and Rukh Egg: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=965 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive...

Marazan 7y ago

IMO you wouldn't be able to come close. I'm not familiar with how much reminder text modern cards have but surely there is no way you'd be able to work out anything close to the timing rules from just cards alone.

reificator 7y ago
There are plenty of cards that reference sorcery speed, there's a card that lists all the phases in order and has players skip one, there's the Split-Second keyword which says you can't put things on the stack until it finishes resolving. The fact that the game is fundamentally about overwriting its own rules is why I think it might be possible.
bsder 7y ago
Older cards have more expressive text. So, you can probably link modern vocabulary to older vocabulary to explain play and rules. However, there are certain rules that are arbitrary. For example, the fact that resolution order follows a "stack" is specified nowhere on cards.
- twanvl 7y ago
  > For example, the fact that resolution order follows a "stack" is specified nowhere on cards. There are actually several things that reference the stack. For example the reminder text for Split second ("As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.") and end the turn ("Exile all spells and abilities from the stack, including this card..."). From this we learn that normally people can cast spells and abilities, and that these go onto "the stack". And if you know what a stack is, then the resolution order follows from that.
  - Marazan 7y ago
    No, you only learn there is a thing called "the stack". You have no idea how things get there.

aluren 7y ago

I don't think there's a single person today that knows all the rules. If you want to annoy any judge just ask about an interaction between 3+ cards involving Opalescence and Humility. On top of that the rules get more complex with every set, though they do attempt to cut things down. Fortunately for competitive play you only need to worry about a few hundred strong enough cards or so.

dodobirdlord 7y ago
> I don't think there's a single person today that knows all the rules. Knowing the rules won't even save you, the game has undecidable interactions. https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828

Someone 7y ago

I don’t know the game, but skimming https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190823.pdf https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020... (not the best organized of texts, IMO. ‘Normal’ game rules start describing the goal of the game (https://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=171&view=article https://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=171&view=article: ”1.1 The game of chess is played between two opponents who move their pieces on a square board called a ‘chessboard’. The player with the light-coloured pieces (White) makes the first move, then the players move alternately, with the player with the dark-coloured pieces (Black) making the next move. A player is said to ‘have the move’ when his opponent’s move has been ‘made’.” Similarly, the rules for bridge (http://www.worldbridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017LawsofDuplicateBridge-paginated.docx http://www.worldbridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017La...) start ”Duplicate Bridge is played with a pack of 52 cards, consisting of 13 cards in each of four suits. The suits rank downward in the order spades (), hearts (), diamonds (), clubs (). The Cards of each suit rank downward in the order Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2” As another example, couldn’t those “in a Emperor/Commander/multiplayer game,…” sections be grouped by type of game?), there are decks, stacks, sideboards, zones, one of which is the battlefields, and libraries. Presumably, they all behave differently. If those aliens don’t know what these words mean in this world, are they going to figure out what they mean in the game from reading the cards? For example, rule 405.2 ”The stack keeps track of the order that spells and/or abilities were added to it. Each time an object is put on the stack, it’s put on top of all objects already there.” isn’t hard to infer if you know what a stack is, but if you don’t? Similarly, I read ”An effect may state that a player wins the game.”. Chances are those aliens will think that’s the only way to win. Also, that text is full of extremely weird rules (“A card’s name is always considered to be the English version of its name, regardless of printed language”) that, I guess, are impossible to discover from the cards only.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
> Similarly, I read "An effect may state that a player wins the game.". Chances are those aliens will think that’s the only way to win. This is vanishingly unlikely, because of the lich-flavored cards that explicitly state "You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life." See e.g. https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46134 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive... . > Also, that text is full of extremely weird rules ("A card’s name is always considered to be the English version of its name, regardless of printed language") that, I guess, are impossible to discover from the cards only. Again, with access to every card, it's pretty well guaranteed that this rule would be noticed. The only reason this rule exists in the first place is because of different cards sharing the same name in non-English languages. I don't know how to look up the foreign names of cards, but there's one pair in particular that I imagine is a real offender here: Roc Egg: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=470619 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive... and Rukh Egg: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=965 https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multive...