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> How is it a betrayal of anything or anyone to vote for the better of two viable options (according to your own opinion)? How do you weigh two options when on

> How is it a betrayal of anything or anyone to vote for the better of two viable options (according to your own opinion)? How do you weigh two options when one has a record of imposing very long-term harms (PRWORA has now been on the books for almost 30 years and if you remember her response to Sanders' accusation she helped round up the votes for PRWORA, it was to defend the law) vs a more acute set of insecurities? That's the choice between measles (orange, fast-spreading, kill you or you recover) and polio (not orange, slower spreading, you might not ever fully recover). So I am not entirely sure from the perspective of being married to a non-American who was the lesser evil except to say they were both genuinely horrifying. Theres a second very important point here as well. If the issues that matter to my family (for example, full inclusion in the protections of the working classes -- even we knowledge workers are working class) are not on the table, withholding my vote may be the only way to get them on the table at all, and voting for someone who has actively worked against those interests is a betrayal of that.

wilg 7y ago
On the issue you originally mentioned – immigration – surely it's clear which where each of these two people stood. Look at their policy proposals, their party's policy proposals, their party's policy history, and their rhetoric. Then you vote for the one that's better. No matter how slight the difference (though in this case the difference is huge). I'm not sure what issue you're referring to getting on the table. (I suspect it actually already is on the table.) But how does not voting get that issue on the table? It's too late to change the candidates' positions on election day. Are you hoping that years later a different set of candidates will try to address your concern by examining who didn't vote in the previous election? That seems unlikely. Candidates do what voters want, not non-voters. Opinion polls often throw out non-voters, too. And most people care about multiple issues, so even if your main issue isn't addressed by anyone, you've lost the opportunity to try to make some progress on all of those "less important" issues. The winning strategy for improving the world is not hard. Vote for the "lesser of two evils". Every single time. This will cause evil to decline. Maybe slowly, hopefully quickly. Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. The main two U.S. parties have a lot of differences. It should be pretty easy to figure out which closer aligns with your views.
- einhverfr 7y ago
  But what of those other issues? Health care reform that specifically singles out my family for additional burdens if I lose my job because I am married to an immigrant (back to the same issue)? What I am doing is trying to help a third party organize so that if not this year, if not next year, if not in four years, we can eventually make an impact. Basic point is: If my family is not to be fully included with the same rights, then you don't need my vote. This willingness to throw elections made the Democrats come around on gay rights. It ought to be used by those of us in mixed-nationality families to make them come around on immigrant rights. (In addition to organizational efforts, I am in the running for volunteering for various positions in the American Solidarity Party, primarily because they do include families like mine in their agenda.)
  - wilg 7y ago
    I don't understand the issue you're referring to with health care. Can you explain further? I also don't how being "willing" to "throw" elections helped change Democrats' opinions on gay rights? What are you referring to? Helping a third party is counterproductive and irresponsible. The only "impact" you will make is in harming the issues you care about most. It's the same as just volunteering to help the major party you like the least. It's basically the worst thing you can do. At best, third parties in the US take advantage of well-meaning people by using magical thinking and cynicism. At worst, they're used as patsies to let foreign dictators influence the election[1]. In our first-past-the-post voting system, you have to get a majority to win, not a plurality. The party with the most votes doesn't win – the party with over half the votes wins. This means it isn't possible to have more that two competitive parties under this voting system. I don't like that system. I think we should have a different voting system that more fairly represents people and eliminates mathematical loopholes. I also think the major political party that most closely represents my views is also the most likely to offer a chance for electoral reform. It's a much faster, easier, and more plausible strategy to try to move the best viable party in the direction you prefer. There's effective alternatives to third parties – look at the Democratic Socialists of America or the Tea Party. These groups were able to use the major political parties to launch and implement their platform very quickly (like in one or two election cycles). There's more actual politicians aligned with groups like this than any third party, and they have massive influence over US politics. And they don't have the downside of forcing their members to shoot themselves in the foot every election. The US absolutely needs people like you who are passionate about important issues and have the time and energy to dedicate to making real change. But please, for everyone's sake, do it in a way that doesn't directly harm the only peaceful strategy for political change that we have. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/russians-launched-pro-jill-stein-social-media-blitz-help-trump-n951166 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/russians-...

wilg 7y ago

On the issue you originally mentioned – immigration – surely it's clear which where each of these two people stood. Look at their policy proposals, their party's policy proposals, their party's policy history, and their rhetoric. Then you vote for the one that's better. No matter how slight the difference (though in this case the difference is huge). I'm not sure what issue you're referring to getting on the table. (I suspect it actually already is on the table.) But how does not voting get that issue on the table? It's too late to change the candidates' positions on election day. Are you hoping that years later a different set of candidates will try to address your concern by examining who didn't vote in the previous election? That seems unlikely. Candidates do what voters want, not non-voters. Opinion polls often throw out non-voters, too. And most people care about multiple issues, so even if your main issue isn't addressed by anyone, you've lost the opportunity to try to make some progress on all of those "less important" issues. The winning strategy for improving the world is not hard. Vote for the "lesser of two evils". Every single time. This will cause evil to decline. Maybe slowly, hopefully quickly. Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. The main two U.S. parties have a lot of differences. It should be pretty easy to figure out which closer aligns with your views.

einhverfr 7y ago
But what of those other issues? Health care reform that specifically singles out my family for additional burdens if I lose my job because I am married to an immigrant (back to the same issue)? What I am doing is trying to help a third party organize so that if not this year, if not next year, if not in four years, we can eventually make an impact. Basic point is: If my family is not to be fully included with the same rights, then you don't need my vote. This willingness to throw elections made the Democrats come around on gay rights. It ought to be used by those of us in mixed-nationality families to make them come around on immigrant rights. (In addition to organizational efforts, I am in the running for volunteering for various positions in the American Solidarity Party, primarily because they do include families like mine in their agenda.)
- wilg 7y ago
  I don't understand the issue you're referring to with health care. Can you explain further? I also don't how being "willing" to "throw" elections helped change Democrats' opinions on gay rights? What are you referring to? Helping a third party is counterproductive and irresponsible. The only "impact" you will make is in harming the issues you care about most. It's the same as just volunteering to help the major party you like the least. It's basically the worst thing you can do. At best, third parties in the US take advantage of well-meaning people by using magical thinking and cynicism. At worst, they're used as patsies to let foreign dictators influence the election[1]. In our first-past-the-post voting system, you have to get a majority to win, not a plurality. The party with the most votes doesn't win – the party with over half the votes wins. This means it isn't possible to have more that two competitive parties under this voting system. I don't like that system. I think we should have a different voting system that more fairly represents people and eliminates mathematical loopholes. I also think the major political party that most closely represents my views is also the most likely to offer a chance for electoral reform. It's a much faster, easier, and more plausible strategy to try to move the best viable party in the direction you prefer. There's effective alternatives to third parties – look at the Democratic Socialists of America or the Tea Party. These groups were able to use the major political parties to launch and implement their platform very quickly (like in one or two election cycles). There's more actual politicians aligned with groups like this than any third party, and they have massive influence over US politics. And they don't have the downside of forcing their members to shoot themselves in the foot every election. The US absolutely needs people like you who are passionate about important issues and have the time and energy to dedicate to making real change. But please, for everyone's sake, do it in a way that doesn't directly harm the only peaceful strategy for political change that we have. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/russians-launched-pro-jill-stein-social-media-blitz-help-trump-n951166 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/russians-...