5 ms·

So I've been saying something like this for years now. HOW do we know something is not going wrong without any long term/clinical data (ESPECIALLY around these

So I've been saying something like this for years now. HOW do we know something is not going wrong without any long term/clinical data (ESPECIALLY around these custom flavours that people sometimes roll out themselves)? I think it's completely presumptuous when people tout vaping as being much safer than cigarettes. We didn't all wake up one day knowing smoking was bad - it was a long road filled with politics, science and data. Vaping is in its infancy and already people's mantras sound like old Camel commercials.

decebalus1 7y ago
> Vaping is in its infancy and already people's mantras sound like old Camel commercials. I agree. I'm one of the people who managed to quit smoking using vaping and at one point I had some sort of awakening. After vaping for a couple of years I stopped and asked myself what the hell am I doing? I had countless mods, juices, RDAs, RTAs, etc.. and was a frequent contributor to the electronic_cigarette subreddit. I replaced a vice (I hated) with a hobby and was part of a cult (1). But at least I knew I was taking full responsibility for it. I knew the wattages, coil materials and what went into my juice. Most people buying stuff from gas stations or shady online retailers don't always know what they're doing (see for example the battery venting incidents). And I stopped. I got rid of everything, vaped only unflavored juice for a while and quit altogether. After a couple of years, I ended up on the electronic_cigarette subreddit again and I was legitimately scared of what I was reading. It's a bubble. 'big tobacco' conspiracies, all doctors advising people to stop vaping are quacks, downplaying all sorts of issues (batteries venting due to shady mod soldering, hardware from China advertised as stainless steel which rusts, silica coils etc..). And nothing would change their minds. Even online vendors have these big-ass disclaimers that they won't take any responsibility for the health effects of their products but that too is classified as a plain old 'CYA' policy so you know.. nothing to worry about. Also, now they're vaping nic salts? WTF is that? In this particular case, my personal opinion is that was definitely something seriously bad in the juice these people were vaping so I wouldn't panic just yet. Contrary to popular belief, I still believe that the CDC will get the job done and figure out the root cause. It reminds me of the time people started smoking bath salts and ended up in the ER where doctors initially didn't know what to make of it. But I wouldn't bet any money that in a couple of years we won't find some weird/horrible side effect of vaping which appears only after prolonged use. Let's not forget that people did not get sick from cigarettes instantly... (1) Small cult checklist: - The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its ideology - Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished - The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself - The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality (see analog smokers) - The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members (converting friends/family with starter kits)
- leetcrew 7y ago
  you make some good points here, especially regarding the wide range of quality available in the vape market (gas station cig-a-likes vs rda with coils and juice you made yourself) and the echo chamber of r/electronic_cigarette, but I do want to point out that nic salts are not some scary weird thing. alkaloids (like nicotine) all have freebase and salt forms. usually the freebase has a lower boiling point, while the salt is more stable and will dissolve more readily in water. neither is inherently more dangerous than the other, but can yield different levels of efficiency depending how the drug is administered. I'm not sure exactly what advantage salts have over freebase for vaping; I would think the lower boiling point would be advantageous.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    salts in vaping have less ‘hit’ (tingling sensation in the throat) and higher but slower absorption efficiency. i actually prefer freebase because it gives more feedback about the level of nicotine i’m taking in instead of accidentally pushing my blood pressure up noticeably five minutes later
taneq 7y ago
Honestly, I think switching from something which WILL kill you to something which might have as-yet-undiscovered long term health implications is an absolute win.
- imgabe 7y ago
  Not nearly as much of a win as not inhaling any smoke or vapor at all though. If vaping is a path to quitting altogether then that can be a win. If it's just a different vice then no. It's probably never going to be 100% safe to inhale foreign substances into your lungs
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    Unless you are breathing out of oxygen tank, breathing is always loaded with foreign substances.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    >Not nearly as much of a win as not inhaling any smoke or vapor at all though. Of course, but that's not a practical expectation for most smokers. We have decades of evidence showing that quitting is HARD and that many (most?) will fail. "Just stop" isn't a solution.
    - imgabe 7y ago
      I used to smoke a pack a day and quit about 14 years ago using the patch. Quitting is ultimately the only solution. "Keep smoking" just means eventually dying from a smoking related illness.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        That's great for you, but we have plenty of evidence that the patch doesn't work for a lot of people. It's also expensive. It didn't work for me because I enjoy the act of smoking.
  - taneq 7y ago
szbalint 7y ago
We have to weight a complex set of circumstances: - smoking is an exceptionally harmful habit, so just by coming up with any other activity at random one is likely to end up healthier - this also means advising smokers to switch to vaping even without knowing the health effects of vaping makes sense - marketing vaping to non-smokers should be severely limited though - marketing vaping to kids like juul does, should be downright illegal
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > marketing vaping to kids like juul does do/did they actually do this? I did a quick Google search and I can find a lot of articles making this claim but the only evidence given is that they have twenty-somethings and bright colors in their ads. if this is "marketing to kids", then that bar seems awfully low.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    you are correct; people just get rightly alarmed that it took off with high school students. their marketing is pretty typical in that it’s aimed at young people but i’ve never seen anything particularly nefarious.
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    > Last summer, with public concern about teenage vaping growing, Juul Labs paid a charter school organization in Baltimore $134,000 to set up a five-week summer camp to teach children healthy lifestyles. > The curriculum was created by Juul — maker of the very vaping devices that were causing the most alarm among parents, health experts and public officials. > In April 2017, a Juul representative visited the Dwight School in New York City to meet with students — with no teachers present — and told them the company’s e-cigarettes were “totally safe.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/health/juul-teens-vaping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/health/juul-teens-vaping....
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      >> In April 2017, a Juul representative visited the Dwight School in New York City to meet with students — with no teachers present — and told them the company’s e-cigarettes were “totally safe.” this one is pretty damning, but it's only one occurrence. I doubt NYT would have held back if they had any more such anecdotes to offer. as for the rest of the article, the education programs seem a bit sketchy, but they could just as easily be a poorly conceived PR campaign.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
Keep in mind that the main issue with cigarettes is what is in them: Carncinogens. Not just anything gives cancer. If something doesn't have carcinogens, like vapes, it doesn't cause cancer. And, as far as I know, the cancer bit is what makes cigarettes so bad.
- decebalus1 7y ago
  > And, as far as I know, the cancer bit is what makes cigarettes so bad. Not only. The cancer is the long game. The shorter game is the risk of cardiovascular disease and stroke. Nicotine is one of the culprits, not the generic 'carcinogens' which you only find in cigarettes.

decebalus1 7y ago

> Vaping is in its infancy and already people's mantras sound like old Camel commercials. I agree. I'm one of the people who managed to quit smoking using vaping and at one point I had some sort of awakening. After vaping for a couple of years I stopped and asked myself what the hell am I doing? I had countless mods, juices, RDAs, RTAs, etc.. and was a frequent contributor to the electronic_cigarette subreddit. I replaced a vice (I hated) with a hobby and was part of a cult (1). But at least I knew I was taking full responsibility for it. I knew the wattages, coil materials and what went into my juice. Most people buying stuff from gas stations or shady online retailers don't always know what they're doing (see for example the battery venting incidents). And I stopped. I got rid of everything, vaped only unflavored juice for a while and quit altogether. After a couple of years, I ended up on the electronic_cigarette subreddit again and I was legitimately scared of what I was reading. It's a bubble. 'big tobacco' conspiracies, all doctors advising people to stop vaping are quacks, downplaying all sorts of issues (batteries venting due to shady mod soldering, hardware from China advertised as stainless steel which rusts, silica coils etc..). And nothing would change their minds. Even online vendors have these big-ass disclaimers that they won't take any responsibility for the health effects of their products but that too is classified as a plain old 'CYA' policy so you know.. nothing to worry about. Also, now they're vaping nic salts? WTF is that? In this particular case, my personal opinion is that was definitely something seriously bad in the juice these people were vaping so I wouldn't panic just yet. Contrary to popular belief, I still believe that the CDC will get the job done and figure out the root cause. It reminds me of the time people started smoking bath salts and ended up in the ER where doctors initially didn't know what to make of it. But I wouldn't bet any money that in a couple of years we won't find some weird/horrible side effect of vaping which appears only after prolonged use. Let's not forget that people did not get sick from cigarettes instantly... (1) Small cult checklist: - The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its ideology - Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished - The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself - The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality (see analog smokers) - The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members (converting friends/family with starter kits)

leetcrew 7y ago
you make some good points here, especially regarding the wide range of quality available in the vape market (gas station cig-a-likes vs rda with coils and juice you made yourself) and the echo chamber of r/electronic_cigarette, but I do want to point out that nic salts are not some scary weird thing. alkaloids (like nicotine) all have freebase and salt forms. usually the freebase has a lower boiling point, while the salt is more stable and will dissolve more readily in water. neither is inherently more dangerous than the other, but can yield different levels of efficiency depending how the drug is administered. I'm not sure exactly what advantage salts have over freebase for vaping; I would think the lower boiling point would be advantageous.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  salts in vaping have less ‘hit’ (tingling sensation in the throat) and higher but slower absorption efficiency. i actually prefer freebase because it gives more feedback about the level of nicotine i’m taking in instead of accidentally pushing my blood pressure up noticeably five minutes later

taneq 7y ago

Honestly, I think switching from something which WILL kill you to something which might have as-yet-undiscovered long term health implications is an absolute win.

imgabe 7y ago
Not nearly as much of a win as not inhaling any smoke or vapor at all though. If vaping is a path to quitting altogether then that can be a win. If it's just a different vice then no. It's probably never going to be 100% safe to inhale foreign substances into your lungs
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Unless you are breathing out of oxygen tank, breathing is always loaded with foreign substances.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  >Not nearly as much of a win as not inhaling any smoke or vapor at all though. Of course, but that's not a practical expectation for most smokers. We have decades of evidence showing that quitting is HARD and that many (most?) will fail. "Just stop" isn't a solution.
  - imgabe 7y ago
    I used to smoke a pack a day and quit about 14 years ago using the patch. Quitting is ultimately the only solution. "Keep smoking" just means eventually dying from a smoking related illness.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      That's great for you, but we have plenty of evidence that the patch doesn't work for a lot of people. It's also expensive. It didn't work for me because I enjoy the act of smoking.
- taneq 7y ago

szbalint 7y ago

We have to weight a complex set of circumstances: - smoking is an exceptionally harmful habit, so just by coming up with any other activity at random one is likely to end up healthier - this also means advising smokers to switch to vaping even without knowing the health effects of vaping makes sense - marketing vaping to non-smokers should be severely limited though - marketing vaping to kids like juul does, should be downright illegal

leetcrew 7y ago
> marketing vaping to kids like juul does do/did they actually do this? I did a quick Google search and I can find a lot of articles making this claim but the only evidence given is that they have twenty-somethings and bright colors in their ads. if this is "marketing to kids", then that bar seems awfully low.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  you are correct; people just get rightly alarmed that it took off with high school students. their marketing is pretty typical in that it’s aimed at young people but i’ve never seen anything particularly nefarious.
- roywiggins 7y ago
  > Last summer, with public concern about teenage vaping growing, Juul Labs paid a charter school organization in Baltimore $134,000 to set up a five-week summer camp to teach children healthy lifestyles. > The curriculum was created by Juul — maker of the very vaping devices that were causing the most alarm among parents, health experts and public officials. > In April 2017, a Juul representative visited the Dwight School in New York City to meet with students — with no teachers present — and told them the company’s e-cigarettes were “totally safe.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/health/juul-teens-vaping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/health/juul-teens-vaping....
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    >> In April 2017, a Juul representative visited the Dwight School in New York City to meet with students — with no teachers present — and told them the company’s e-cigarettes were “totally safe.” this one is pretty damning, but it's only one occurrence. I doubt NYT would have held back if they had any more such anecdotes to offer. as for the rest of the article, the education programs seem a bit sketchy, but they could just as easily be a poorly conceived PR campaign.

dr_dshiv 7y ago

Keep in mind that the main issue with cigarettes is what is in them: Carncinogens. Not just anything gives cancer. If something doesn't have carcinogens, like vapes, it doesn't cause cancer. And, as far as I know, the cancer bit is what makes cigarettes so bad.

decebalus1 7y ago
> And, as far as I know, the cancer bit is what makes cigarettes so bad. Not only. The cancer is the long game. The shorter game is the risk of cardiovascular disease and stroke. Nicotine is one of the culprits, not the generic 'carcinogens' which you only find in cigarettes.