7 ms·

I feel deeply uncomfortable taking Ubers, especially in Seattle. The drivers are inevitably working class folk, just trying to scrape by. They inevitably mentio

I feel deeply uncomfortable taking Ubers, especially in Seattle. The drivers are inevitably working class folk, just trying to scrape by. They inevitably mention the increasing rent and cost of living. They inevitably ask what I do and I have to respond that I'm one of the asshole carpetbagging tech people who come in and raise the cost of living, raise the rent. Services like Uber are placing the class barrier front and center. They're making the differences between the have and the have nots bitterly visible. Which...I guess is a good thing? If you're into the whole class consciousness stuff. I'm not so sure myself. Perhaps that's because I'd be a bourgeoisie, not a proletarian.

kazinator 7y ago
> I have to respond that ... Says who?
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  Well, politeness dictates. I suppose I could lie. Or just refuse to answer.
  - fieryskiff1 7y ago
    You could, I don't know... actually not support the system and avoid Uber? (Gasp!)
  - dymk 7y ago
    You're overthinking this; when I say what Big Evil Tech Company I work at, 9/10 times they say "Oh that's neat I bet working there is really fun", and the remaining 1/10 time is "Oh what do you think about Cambridge Analytica"
    - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
      There’s a slight difference in the sort of abstract evil that Cambridge Analytica poses and the very tangible changes that Amazon and Microsoft are bringing to Seattle. Your average person isn’t going to understand data collection and its role in political manipulation but they will understand rent increases and gentrification.
remarkEon 7y ago
How is this different from taking a cab? Honest question. Maybe the difference is the relationship between employer and employee in that regard.
epistasis 7y ago
You didn't do that. It's not tech that's increasing housing prices in Seattle, it's the people that have houses and don't want to have to share their city that are causing rising prices. The US is a nation of immigrants and migrants, and the cities that have decided "no we are full and only care about current residents" are the ones who have created this situation, not you. Do you have a paid off house, own land and try to keep people out? If not, you are not to blame. Another problem is that it takes an Uber ride for you to experience the class difference. We have let class and racial segregation become an acceptable and even expected state of matters in our cities. We need to reverse that segregation in addition to reversing the "got mine, forget you" policies of cities that are driving up rents.
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  That's a good point that Uber raise awareness of class difference. But I'm not sure the best vehicle (heh) is having a member of the proletariat drive you around.
- bradleyjg 7y ago
  > We have let class and racial segregation become an acceptable and even expected state of matters in our cities. A white-flight situation is one thing, even if one advocates for busing as I do, there are practical limitations. But there's absolutely no excuse for micro catchment areas within a single municipal jurisdiction. That's just blatant pandering. (Sorry to have gone off on a school segregation tangent in an uber thread ...)
seibelj 7y ago
Do you do the same complex class calculation every time you interact with a cashier, talk to a receptionist, or pass a janitor? People do honest work and earn a living, no shame in that. Your life must be exhausting if you have a class-based panic attack when you hop in an Uber!
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  Uber feels different for some reason. Maybe it's the lack of transparency with salary. With a regular job, you get paid x dollars an hour. That's it. You may get paid minimum wage, but at least you know it's minimum wage. With Uber, a lot of people come in with expectations of a high salary (falsely perpetuated by Uber), then end up making a whole lot less. Sometimes less than minimum wage. Maybe it's the semi-predatory loans program. These drivers take out loans for cars, thinking they're gonna get paid a good salary, but then they make minimum wage and get locked into payments. I can't shake the feeling that Uber is conning its drivers. And that we're culpable.
  - tzs 7y ago
    Another difference is that the cashier, receptionist, and janitor have a good chance of having an employer provided health insurance plan, and perhaps other employee benefits. Since Uber says the drivers aren't employees, it does not provide them with any of that.
    - novok 7y ago
      There are many business that don't do a full 40 hours so they don't have give benefits. And they demand you comply to a badly planned last minute schedule. There are also businesses where you don't know if the tips are going to the employees or to the business owner. You have no idea if your fast food server lives a 2hr commute away and does 2 or 3 '30 hr' (no benefits) jobs to tread water. Also the benefits things is a uniquely American issue, in many other countries it is not. In the past the exploitive bigco was walmart. Walmart is still the same, but we don't really talk about it anymore?
  - 7y ago
goatinaboat 7y ago
This, I think, is at the heart of the self-driving car hype. People love ordering a car by app, they love SoftBank or whoever subsiding their ride, they don’t really care about externalities like the company evading its taxes. But talking to the working class, that’s a step too far for them.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tracer4201 7y ago
I’m in Seattle. I’ve talked to some Uber and Lyft drivers who seem very upbeat and like what they do and others who hate it. I don’t go into this mental calculus every time I interact with an Uber driver, the person cutting my hair, or bagging my groceries. There are different jobs - you voluntarily took the job. No one is forcing you to be an Uber driver. Why the outrage? Is it that much better to work at WalMart, QFC, or fast food? Why not do those jobs? Do you also avoid buying groceries or purchasing anything at all made in China because of labor conditions? I get it you want to take a stand somewhere - sure. On a meta point, the NYT and other media outlets run a story on one of the big tech companies literally every single daily. If it’s not about Google being nefarious because they’re working with the US government then it’s about FB, or about Amazon selling items that can be a choking hazard for toddlers. The outrage culture is annoying and it keeps these companies making money.
Bostonian 7y ago
"They inevitably ask what I do and I have to respond that I'm one of the asshole carpetbagging tech people who come in and raise the cost of living, raise the rent." Uber customers are not generally deceiving Uber drivers, and if they want to feel better about themselves, they can tip. No one is forced to driver for Uber. The United States is a rich country in part because people can move to better job opportunities throughout the nation. That mobility does not deserve the "carpetbagging" slur.
malandrew 7y ago
This may sound pithy but it sounds like your solution to your discomfort over class divides is to stop using these services so you don't have to experience the class divide and get to avoid that cognitive dissonance. All you're doing is reducing the amount of income that those people would have otherwise received if you had participated on the demand side of this market.

kazinator 7y ago

> I have to respond that ... Says who?

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Well, politeness dictates. I suppose I could lie. Or just refuse to answer.
- fieryskiff1 7y ago
  You could, I don't know... actually not support the system and avoid Uber? (Gasp!)
- dymk 7y ago
  You're overthinking this; when I say what Big Evil Tech Company I work at, 9/10 times they say "Oh that's neat I bet working there is really fun", and the remaining 1/10 time is "Oh what do you think about Cambridge Analytica"
  - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
    There’s a slight difference in the sort of abstract evil that Cambridge Analytica poses and the very tangible changes that Amazon and Microsoft are bringing to Seattle. Your average person isn’t going to understand data collection and its role in political manipulation but they will understand rent increases and gentrification.

remarkEon 7y ago

How is this different from taking a cab? Honest question. Maybe the difference is the relationship between employer and employee in that regard.

epistasis 7y ago

You didn't do that. It's not tech that's increasing housing prices in Seattle, it's the people that have houses and don't want to have to share their city that are causing rising prices. The US is a nation of immigrants and migrants, and the cities that have decided "no we are full and only care about current residents" are the ones who have created this situation, not you. Do you have a paid off house, own land and try to keep people out? If not, you are not to blame. Another problem is that it takes an Uber ride for you to experience the class difference. We have let class and racial segregation become an acceptable and even expected state of matters in our cities. We need to reverse that segregation in addition to reversing the "got mine, forget you" policies of cities that are driving up rents.

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
That's a good point that Uber raise awareness of class difference. But I'm not sure the best vehicle (heh) is having a member of the proletariat drive you around.
bradleyjg 7y ago
> We have let class and racial segregation become an acceptable and even expected state of matters in our cities. A white-flight situation is one thing, even if one advocates for busing as I do, there are practical limitations. But there's absolutely no excuse for micro catchment areas within a single municipal jurisdiction. That's just blatant pandering. (Sorry to have gone off on a school segregation tangent in an uber thread ...)

seibelj 7y ago

Do you do the same complex class calculation every time you interact with a cashier, talk to a receptionist, or pass a janitor? People do honest work and earn a living, no shame in that. Your life must be exhausting if you have a class-based panic attack when you hop in an Uber!

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Uber feels different for some reason. Maybe it's the lack of transparency with salary. With a regular job, you get paid x dollars an hour. That's it. You may get paid minimum wage, but at least you know it's minimum wage. With Uber, a lot of people come in with expectations of a high salary (falsely perpetuated by Uber), then end up making a whole lot less. Sometimes less than minimum wage. Maybe it's the semi-predatory loans program. These drivers take out loans for cars, thinking they're gonna get paid a good salary, but then they make minimum wage and get locked into payments. I can't shake the feeling that Uber is conning its drivers. And that we're culpable.
- tzs 7y ago
  Another difference is that the cashier, receptionist, and janitor have a good chance of having an employer provided health insurance plan, and perhaps other employee benefits. Since Uber says the drivers aren't employees, it does not provide them with any of that.
  - novok 7y ago
    There are many business that don't do a full 40 hours so they don't have give benefits. And they demand you comply to a badly planned last minute schedule. There are also businesses where you don't know if the tips are going to the employees or to the business owner. You have no idea if your fast food server lives a 2hr commute away and does 2 or 3 '30 hr' (no benefits) jobs to tread water. Also the benefits things is a uniquely American issue, in many other countries it is not. In the past the exploitive bigco was walmart. Walmart is still the same, but we don't really talk about it anymore?
- 7y ago

goatinaboat 7y ago

This, I think, is at the heart of the self-driving car hype. People love ordering a car by app, they love SoftBank or whoever subsiding their ride, they don’t really care about externalities like the company evading its taxes. But talking to the working class, that’s a step too far for them.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tracer4201 7y ago

I’m in Seattle. I’ve talked to some Uber and Lyft drivers who seem very upbeat and like what they do and others who hate it. I don’t go into this mental calculus every time I interact with an Uber driver, the person cutting my hair, or bagging my groceries. There are different jobs - you voluntarily took the job. No one is forcing you to be an Uber driver. Why the outrage? Is it that much better to work at WalMart, QFC, or fast food? Why not do those jobs? Do you also avoid buying groceries or purchasing anything at all made in China because of labor conditions? I get it you want to take a stand somewhere - sure. On a meta point, the NYT and other media outlets run a story on one of the big tech companies literally every single daily. If it’s not about Google being nefarious because they’re working with the US government then it’s about FB, or about Amazon selling items that can be a choking hazard for toddlers. The outrage culture is annoying and it keeps these companies making money.

Bostonian 7y ago

"They inevitably ask what I do and I have to respond that I'm one of the asshole carpetbagging tech people who come in and raise the cost of living, raise the rent." Uber customers are not generally deceiving Uber drivers, and if they want to feel better about themselves, they can tip. No one is forced to driver for Uber. The United States is a rich country in part because people can move to better job opportunities throughout the nation. That mobility does not deserve the "carpetbagging" slur.

malandrew 7y ago

This may sound pithy but it sounds like your solution to your discomfort over class divides is to stop using these services so you don't have to experience the class divide and get to avoid that cognitive dissonance. All you're doing is reducing the amount of income that those people would have otherwise received if you had participated on the demand side of this market.