4 ms·

> Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. N

> Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. No amount of arguing can convince them otherwise. What is your plan for these people then? Kill them? Put them in reeducation camps? Deport them? Like it or not, these people exist and they're not going anywhere. We can either: 1) be intolerant towards them, thus making them form their own communities and grow more and more extreme because they're surrounded by like minded people. 2) be tolerant towards them, and try to change their beliefs. Do you think that thes people are more likely to change their views if the rest of society is intolerant towards them and the only people they talk to are other white nationalist? Or if society does act treat them with tolerance, and they interact with more non-white-nationalists. If we treat them with intolerance, then the only community they will find is with other white nationalists. If we do this, the problem is going to get worse and there are going to be more attacks.

dragontamer 7y ago
> What is your plan for these people then? Kill them? Put them in reeducation camps? Deport them? Censor them, and prevent them from recruiting more. Wipe them off of Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter. Ban hate-speech. > 1) be intolerant towards them, thus making them form their own communities and grow more and more extreme because they're surrounded by like minded people. And take down these communities as they pop up. Its like weeding, you gotta keep knocking it down. I don't expect perfection. But make it a hassle for them to organize.
- manfredo 7y ago
  > Censor them, and prevent them from recruiting more. Wipe them off of Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter. Ban hate-speech. Again, not possible unless you repeal the first amendment. Not really possible even if you do, since TOR exists. > And take down these communities as they pop up. Its like weeding, you gotta keep knocking it down. I don't expect perfection. But make it a hassle for them to organize Do you realize that part of the reason why these people hate immigrants is because they think immigrants hate them and want to get rid of them? Referring to them as "weeds" that need to be purged is playing straight into their narrative. Knock down their communities and they will see it as proof of their persecution, and use this censorship to appeal to more peole. Deprive them of the ability to use words, and they will use violence. White nationalism has been around for over a century. The attacks only started to accelerate when they started getting deplatformed. Make no mistake, this approach has been making them more violent and it will make them even more violent if it continues.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    1st Amendment only applies to US Government. It doesn't apply to webpage administrators. As such, it is certainly possible for Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter to start to clamp down on the subject.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      The daily stormer runs its own website. Genuine white nationalists have been kicked off Facebook and YouTube for a long time now. You cannot knock down these communities. It is not possible without drastically reducing civil liberties. Freedom of speech and association are not going away. The only viable option to engage and attempt to change their views.
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        > The daily stormer runs its own website. I know. But that website is hosted somewhere, and maybe we can convince those hosts to take it down. > The only viable option to engage and attempt to change their views. And you're free to attempt to do that at Daily Stormer / Stormfront / any other website where they pop up. But I'm telling you that trying to convince them doesn't seem to work.
        manfredo 7y ago
        > I know. But that website is hosted somewhere, and maybe we can convince those hosts to take it down. And then they will set up their own servers. Or move to Gab. Or go to TOR. You can't keep people from communicating on the internet. It's not possible. Countries like mainland China have spent a lot more time and money trying to do it, and it doesn't work. And even if you do somehow manage to kick them off the internet, they'll organize through regular mail. The daily stormer was (and I think still is) a print publication. The post office legally cannot stop them from using the postal service. > And you're free to attempt to do that at Daily Stormer / Stormfront / any other website where they pop up. But I'm telling you that trying to convince them doesn't seem to work. I'll take something that "doesn't seem to work" over something that is actively making things worse. Again, these communities have only become more extreme and more violent the more that society has tried to shut them down. "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that."
krapp 7y ago
Tolerance doesn't somehow prevent white supremacists from forming their own communities or becoming more extreme. If anything, it encourages them to continue doing so, because tolerance is a signal that society will accept their behavior and beliefs as normal, and that there will be no negative social consequences for them, at least until their plans for mass murder become action. And white nationalists talk to non-white nationalists all the time. That's how they recruit new white nationalists. They're not ignorant of the arguments made against their beliefs - they're well aware, and yet they reject those arguments and persist, because irrational beliefs can't be rationalized out of. Most conspiracy theories would vanish in a puff of logic if that's how people worked. Simply letting them organize where they will to spread their hatred unabated on any and every available platform, and then only politely and respectfully trying to convince them that their plans to throw the perfidious Jews into the ovens is a bad idea isn't going to do anything but push the Overton window of tolerance for their intolerance in their direction.

dragontamer 7y ago

> What is your plan for these people then? Kill them? Put them in reeducation camps? Deport them? Censor them, and prevent them from recruiting more. Wipe them off of Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter. Ban hate-speech. > 1) be intolerant towards them, thus making them form their own communities and grow more and more extreme because they're surrounded by like minded people. And take down these communities as they pop up. Its like weeding, you gotta keep knocking it down. I don't expect perfection. But make it a hassle for them to organize.

manfredo 7y ago
> Censor them, and prevent them from recruiting more. Wipe them off of Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter. Ban hate-speech. Again, not possible unless you repeal the first amendment. Not really possible even if you do, since TOR exists. > And take down these communities as they pop up. Its like weeding, you gotta keep knocking it down. I don't expect perfection. But make it a hassle for them to organize Do you realize that part of the reason why these people hate immigrants is because they think immigrants hate them and want to get rid of them? Referring to them as "weeds" that need to be purged is playing straight into their narrative. Knock down their communities and they will see it as proof of their persecution, and use this censorship to appeal to more peole. Deprive them of the ability to use words, and they will use violence. White nationalism has been around for over a century. The attacks only started to accelerate when they started getting deplatformed. Make no mistake, this approach has been making them more violent and it will make them even more violent if it continues.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  1st Amendment only applies to US Government. It doesn't apply to webpage administrators. As such, it is certainly possible for Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter to start to clamp down on the subject.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    The daily stormer runs its own website. Genuine white nationalists have been kicked off Facebook and YouTube for a long time now. You cannot knock down these communities. It is not possible without drastically reducing civil liberties. Freedom of speech and association are not going away. The only viable option to engage and attempt to change their views.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > The daily stormer runs its own website. I know. But that website is hosted somewhere, and maybe we can convince those hosts to take it down. > The only viable option to engage and attempt to change their views. And you're free to attempt to do that at Daily Stormer / Stormfront / any other website where they pop up. But I'm telling you that trying to convince them doesn't seem to work.
      - manfredo 7y ago
        > I know. But that website is hosted somewhere, and maybe we can convince those hosts to take it down. And then they will set up their own servers. Or move to Gab. Or go to TOR. You can't keep people from communicating on the internet. It's not possible. Countries like mainland China have spent a lot more time and money trying to do it, and it doesn't work. And even if you do somehow manage to kick them off the internet, they'll organize through regular mail. The daily stormer was (and I think still is) a print publication. The post office legally cannot stop them from using the postal service. > And you're free to attempt to do that at Daily Stormer / Stormfront / any other website where they pop up. But I'm telling you that trying to convince them doesn't seem to work. I'll take something that "doesn't seem to work" over something that is actively making things worse. Again, these communities have only become more extreme and more violent the more that society has tried to shut them down. "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that."

krapp 7y ago

Tolerance doesn't somehow prevent white supremacists from forming their own communities or becoming more extreme. If anything, it encourages them to continue doing so, because tolerance is a signal that society will accept their behavior and beliefs as normal, and that there will be no negative social consequences for them, at least until their plans for mass murder become action. And white nationalists talk to non-white nationalists all the time. That's how they recruit new white nationalists. They're not ignorant of the arguments made against their beliefs - they're well aware, and yet they reject those arguments and persist, because irrational beliefs can't be rationalized out of. Most conspiracy theories would vanish in a puff of logic if that's how people worked. Simply letting them organize where they will to spread their hatred unabated on any and every available platform, and then only politely and respectfully trying to convince them that their plans to throw the perfidious Jews into the ovens is a bad idea isn't going to do anything but push the Overton window of tolerance for their intolerance in their direction.