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> As I said before: how can My life (or society in general) get better if I become more tolerant of the white-nationalists who want to make America whiter and w

> As I said before: how can My life (or society in general) get better if I become more tolerant of the white-nationalists who want to make America whiter and with less immigrants? They want to kick me out of the country (well, starting with Hispanics first. But I know I'm on their list). How am I supposed to "tolerate" that viewpoint? Because if you do engage with them you can figure out why they think those things and try to change their views. By comparison if you behave intolerantly towards them, then they will become even more entrenched in their belief that immigrants do not tolerate whites, thus reinforcing their xenophobia. > Do you wish to "tolerate" white nationalism, and their philosophy to kick immigrants out of the country? To the point where some of them are going out to El Paso and literally shooting people: Speech and actions are two different things. People can talk about hanging wall Street bankers all they want, but that becomes illegal the moment that this becomes violence. Same with white nationalism or any other belief.

dragontamer 7y ago
> Because if you do engage with them you can figure out why they think those things and try to change their views. Have you tried to do this? Because I've tried. It doesn't seem to work. > Speech and actions are two different things. Speech inspires actions. If you're smart about something, you'll want to stop bad behavior while its still "speech", and not yet an "action". > People can talk about hanging wall Street bankers all they want, but that becomes illegal the moment that this becomes violence. Maybe it should be illegal before the violence breaks out. You know, to prevent violence, instead of reacting to it.
- manfredo 7y ago
  > Have you tried to do this? Because I've tried. It doesn't seem to work. Yes, I have talked to many people that hold views that are labeled as "white nationalist" and engaging with them can change their views. Case in point, I managed to convince people to support immigration tied to employment. I sought to understand why this person opposed immigration, and learned that they feared that immigrants would become dependent on social services. So I made the point that immigration policy can be structure in a way to avoid state dependence. You often won't be able to make them pull a total 180, but you can usually make them more nuanced in their opinions. > Because I want to live here, a location I've lived my entire life, they believe that I "don't tolerate whites"? This is ridiculous on the face of it. You're right, it is ridiculous. But that's what they believe. And if you treat them with intolerance (which is what you've been trying to justify throughout this thread) you're only reinforcing that belief. > No, seriously. Go try arguing against a white nationalist for a while. Its utterly hopeless to get them to change their opinions. Not with this kind of attitude, it isn't. But actually try and engage meaningfully, understand why they believe the things they do, and show them that you are willing to tolerate them even though they don't want to tolerate you and the chances of changing their minds improves considerably. > Maybe it should be illegal before the violence breaks out. You know, to prevent violence, instead of reacting to it. You'll have to start by repealing the first amendment. And after you do, there will be people that will seek to label your views as violent and ban them.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > Case in point, I managed to convince people to support immigration tied to employment I appreciate your honesty, but that's not what I'm talking about. Immigration or anti-immigration is a solid political subject but its "safe". That's the stuff normal people talk about. The white-nationalist stuff I literally cannot beat is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theo... Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. No amount of arguing can convince them otherwise. I'm Asian. Just talking with a white-nationalist reminds them of the Great Replacement. Just seeing me enforces their viewpoint. Yeah, being tolerant of other viewpoints works... when the other person is also a good person at heart. But when you meet truly despicable nutjobs on the white-national spectrum, you lose hope in that "tolerance" viewpoint rather quickly. The only option I've concluded from my experience in that matter, is to censor them and prevent them from recruiting more people. I dunno, maybe you can figure out a better plan. But I'm perfectly willing to use the censorship button to mitigate this problem. And unfortunately, I don't think I have any better option.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      > Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. No amount of arguing can convince them otherwise. What is your plan for these people then? Kill them? Put them in reeducation camps? Deport them? Like it or not, these people exist and they're not going anywhere. We can either: 1) be intolerant towards them, thus making them form their own communities and grow more and more extreme because they're surrounded by like minded people. 2) be tolerant towards them, and try to change their beliefs. Do you think that thes people are more likely to change their views if the rest of society is intolerant towards them and the only people they talk to are other white nationalist? Or if society does act treat them with tolerance, and they interact with more non-white-nationalists. If we treat them with intolerance, then the only community they will find is with other white nationalists. If we do this, the problem is going to get worse and there are going to be more attacks.

dragontamer 7y ago

> Because if you do engage with them you can figure out why they think those things and try to change their views. Have you tried to do this? Because I've tried. It doesn't seem to work. > Speech and actions are two different things. Speech inspires actions. If you're smart about something, you'll want to stop bad behavior while its still "speech", and not yet an "action". > People can talk about hanging wall Street bankers all they want, but that becomes illegal the moment that this becomes violence. Maybe it should be illegal before the violence breaks out. You know, to prevent violence, instead of reacting to it.

manfredo 7y ago
> Have you tried to do this? Because I've tried. It doesn't seem to work. Yes, I have talked to many people that hold views that are labeled as "white nationalist" and engaging with them can change their views. Case in point, I managed to convince people to support immigration tied to employment. I sought to understand why this person opposed immigration, and learned that they feared that immigrants would become dependent on social services. So I made the point that immigration policy can be structure in a way to avoid state dependence. You often won't be able to make them pull a total 180, but you can usually make them more nuanced in their opinions. > Because I want to live here, a location I've lived my entire life, they believe that I "don't tolerate whites"? This is ridiculous on the face of it. You're right, it is ridiculous. But that's what they believe. And if you treat them with intolerance (which is what you've been trying to justify throughout this thread) you're only reinforcing that belief. > No, seriously. Go try arguing against a white nationalist for a while. Its utterly hopeless to get them to change their opinions. Not with this kind of attitude, it isn't. But actually try and engage meaningfully, understand why they believe the things they do, and show them that you are willing to tolerate them even though they don't want to tolerate you and the chances of changing their minds improves considerably. > Maybe it should be illegal before the violence breaks out. You know, to prevent violence, instead of reacting to it. You'll have to start by repealing the first amendment. And after you do, there will be people that will seek to label your views as violent and ban them.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  > Case in point, I managed to convince people to support immigration tied to employment I appreciate your honesty, but that's not what I'm talking about. Immigration or anti-immigration is a solid political subject but its "safe". That's the stuff normal people talk about. The white-nationalist stuff I literally cannot beat is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theo... Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. No amount of arguing can convince them otherwise. I'm Asian. Just talking with a white-nationalist reminds them of the Great Replacement. Just seeing me enforces their viewpoint. Yeah, being tolerant of other viewpoints works... when the other person is also a good person at heart. But when you meet truly despicable nutjobs on the white-national spectrum, you lose hope in that "tolerance" viewpoint rather quickly. The only option I've concluded from my experience in that matter, is to censor them and prevent them from recruiting more people. I dunno, maybe you can figure out a better plan. But I'm perfectly willing to use the censorship button to mitigate this problem. And unfortunately, I don't think I have any better option.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > Have you ever met someone who believed in The Great Replacement or White Genocide? Its basically a conspiracy theory: these people are not rational anymore. No amount of arguing can convince them otherwise. What is your plan for these people then? Kill them? Put them in reeducation camps? Deport them? Like it or not, these people exist and they're not going anywhere. We can either: 1) be intolerant towards them, thus making them form their own communities and grow more and more extreme because they're surrounded by like minded people. 2) be tolerant towards them, and try to change their beliefs. Do you think that thes people are more likely to change their views if the rest of society is intolerant towards them and the only people they talk to are other white nationalist? Or if society does act treat them with tolerance, and they interact with more non-white-nationalists. If we treat them with intolerance, then the only community they will find is with other white nationalists. If we do this, the problem is going to get worse and there are going to be more attacks.