6 ms·

I think the problem is that the US has developed for various reasons (including a lack of discussing politics) a series of echo chambers and people don't connec

I think the problem is that the US has developed for various reasons (including a lack of discussing politics) a series of echo chambers and people don't connect politically beyond their echo chambers. In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most, and these represent a small racial and class-based cross-section of urban California. The first of course is the Neoliberal views of the Rainbow Capitalism camp that brought us Hillary Clinton's candidacy. If there is a second view it is the Business Liberalism view of the elite GOP members such as the Koch brothers. You aren't going to get the political concerns of rust-belt America, or the political concerns of black families down in Watts recognized, nor will you get the communitarianism of rural America in there either. And so that sense of justice gets warped, even regarding national issues of the US today. What happens when these things go world wide? Someone's sense of justice gets offended by economic orders where procreative/childrearing families hold businesses which are inherited and passed on to kids, and where there are solid gender roles associated (my kids' second culture for example)? I guess we better do what we can to make the world safe for American Capitalism to come in and liberate people from family expectations. But that means opening up such cultures to economic exploitation by foreign business and that harm is waved away as if it doesn't matter. The arrogance does matter, because the arrogance can easily lead to outright economic colonialism ("for their own good" as much now as a century ago). The way to hold it in check is for other viewpoints to actually be entertained and discussed.

nickstinemates 7y ago
> In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most, and these represent a small racial and class-based cross-section of urban California. I would argue that these are the only ones allowed.
- einhverfr 7y ago
  In what sense allowed?
  - 80386 7y ago
    I used to hang out in predominantly Californian tech circles, and the atmosphere there was... not at all respectful of places that aren't California. It would have been a good career move for me to suck up to them. Some of them were serial founders who hired their friends, and others could've given useful referrals. But that'd come at the cost of being constantly insulted, hearing my family constantly insulted, and so on, and not being able to say anything in defense. I'm not interested in being around people who think everyone who isn't exactly like them is subhuman - even if cutting contact with them is a bad career move. Then again, that might be why they do that.
    - einhverfr 7y ago
      When I was in the US I used to have a big client in LA. When I would visit I would hang out with various immigrants when not working. There was a lovely Iranian family that owned a restaurant in the area of my client's office and we became friends. I developed a very strong appreciation for how stratified California social class was on issues like public transportation. Come to think of it I have been wondering why Sweden can have a really nice public transit system covering the entire country and California with less land, more people, and more tax dollars cannot. I bet that stratification is the answer.
  - iNate2000 7y ago
    Allowed by the echo chambers
  - smsm42 7y ago
    In the sense that if you are in public with "wrong" views, you'd be shunned socially and professionally, your peers would avoid you or shame you, you may be attacked (verbally and sometimes physically) by unhinged activists, your career development may stall, you may be excluded from professional conferences, groups and projects, your employment may be threatened and in general the overall costs of maintaining such an opinion would be much higher than the "correct" one that "everyone agrees". I am not saying this is the situation everywhere. Not at all. But it is the situation in some places, and Google seems to be one of such places.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most Centrist neoliberals, progressives, libertarians, and “I need active government support because private parties are not actively supporting me” anti-SJW meninists, among other political cliques, all seem to be vocally present in significant numbers among urban California developers. I'm not sure which “one or two” viewpoints you were referring to.
- einhverfr 7y ago
  Fair enough but it still does not reach a fair cross-section of society.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    But is it fairer or less fair than the cross section of society represented by executives and board members who would be policy making if employees did nothing and just followed instructions?
    - einhverfr 7y ago
      That is a point. It would be better though is we recognized Google as something of a common carrier and insisted that they do not try to be the arbiter of what is true.
- smsm42 7y ago
  Libertarians are rare and far between (if you don't consider somebody who likes to smoke a joint and not be busted and hates paying taxes a "libertarian", but talk about serious libertarian views), the right is almost non-existent publicly. Of course you can split hairs and find different left viewpoints represented - after all, we have how many Democrat candidates now, twenty? More? They must have some viewpoint differences between them. These probably are represented in hitech too. But is you look for broader political diversity... not the right place to look, from my experience.
tomcam 7y ago
Any citations for “Business Liberalism view of the elite GOP members such as the Koch brothers”? Unable to confirm this term
- trenselor 7y ago
  See? Google filtered your search. The libs run search.
- ethbro 7y ago
  Parent's probably referring to Koch-style libertarianism. I'm not super familiar with the nuances of their worldview, but it's definitely more business / enterprise-centric than non-Koch libertarianism.
- einhverfr 7y ago
  https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvc77gn1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvc77gn1 for starters. If we understand Liberalism to be a social philosophy tradition starting with Hobbes, being further developed in various forms through Locke, Rousseau, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke, John Rawls, etc. and seeking the liberation of the individual from culture, community, and family then for various the social Liberalism of the democrats (which seeks particularly to liberate people sexually from community judgments and rules) is closely connected to the efforts by the GOP to do the same for people in the business area. They are based on a common view of what it means to be human, a particular view of what freedom is, and so forth. These assumptions are not really so fundamentally shared outside North America. So in both Sweden and Denmark, society looks a lot more like it did structurally to Aristotle than to Hobbes -- strong family households joining together in local communities to address common issues. Those local communities joining together into larger and larger units to address common needs until you have the overall kingdom. These places are less individualist and more localist. Growing up in small towns in the US, I can also tell you that this Business Liberalism is most heavily a force politically in the urban centers of the GOP. Rural politicians don't tend to push it in the same way.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    1) I would not include Rousseau among the fathers, but among the enemies of Liberalism. 2) I think the discourse in the USA has been heavily tilted in favour of libertarianism (maybe what you call "Business Liberalism") by concerted subversive effort sponsored by Koch, Mercer, etc., as outlined eg in the book Dark Money by Jane Mayer.

nickstinemates 7y ago

> In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most, and these represent a small racial and class-based cross-section of urban California. I would argue that these are the only ones allowed.

einhverfr 7y ago
In what sense allowed?
- 80386 7y ago
  I used to hang out in predominantly Californian tech circles, and the atmosphere there was... not at all respectful of places that aren't California. It would have been a good career move for me to suck up to them. Some of them were serial founders who hired their friends, and others could've given useful referrals. But that'd come at the cost of being constantly insulted, hearing my family constantly insulted, and so on, and not being able to say anything in defense. I'm not interested in being around people who think everyone who isn't exactly like them is subhuman - even if cutting contact with them is a bad career move. Then again, that might be why they do that.
  - einhverfr 7y ago
    When I was in the US I used to have a big client in LA. When I would visit I would hang out with various immigrants when not working. There was a lovely Iranian family that owned a restaurant in the area of my client's office and we became friends. I developed a very strong appreciation for how stratified California social class was on issues like public transportation. Come to think of it I have been wondering why Sweden can have a really nice public transit system covering the entire country and California with less land, more people, and more tax dollars cannot. I bet that stratification is the answer.
- iNate2000 7y ago
  Allowed by the echo chambers
- smsm42 7y ago
  In the sense that if you are in public with "wrong" views, you'd be shunned socially and professionally, your peers would avoid you or shame you, you may be attacked (verbally and sometimes physically) by unhinged activists, your career development may stall, you may be excluded from professional conferences, groups and projects, your employment may be threatened and in general the overall costs of maintaining such an opinion would be much higher than the "correct" one that "everyone agrees". I am not saying this is the situation everywhere. Not at all. But it is the situation in some places, and Google seems to be one of such places.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most Centrist neoliberals, progressives, libertarians, and “I need active government support because private parties are not actively supporting me” anti-SJW meninists, among other political cliques, all seem to be vocally present in significant numbers among urban California developers. I'm not sure which “one or two” viewpoints you were referring to.

einhverfr 7y ago
Fair enough but it still does not reach a fair cross-section of society.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  But is it fairer or less fair than the cross section of society represented by executives and board members who would be policy making if employees did nothing and just followed instructions?
  - einhverfr 7y ago
    That is a point. It would be better though is we recognized Google as something of a common carrier and insisted that they do not try to be the arbiter of what is true.
smsm42 7y ago
Libertarians are rare and far between (if you don't consider somebody who likes to smoke a joint and not be busted and hates paying taxes a "libertarian", but talk about serious libertarian views), the right is almost non-existent publicly. Of course you can split hairs and find different left viewpoints represented - after all, we have how many Democrat candidates now, twenty? More? They must have some viewpoint differences between them. These probably are represented in hitech too. But is you look for broader political diversity... not the right place to look, from my experience.

tomcam 7y ago

Any citations for “Business Liberalism view of the elite GOP members such as the Koch brothers”? Unable to confirm this term

trenselor 7y ago
See? Google filtered your search. The libs run search.
ethbro 7y ago
Parent's probably referring to Koch-style libertarianism. I'm not super familiar with the nuances of their worldview, but it's definitely more business / enterprise-centric than non-Koch libertarianism.
einhverfr 7y ago
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvc77gn1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvc77gn1 for starters. If we understand Liberalism to be a social philosophy tradition starting with Hobbes, being further developed in various forms through Locke, Rousseau, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke, John Rawls, etc. and seeking the liberation of the individual from culture, community, and family then for various the social Liberalism of the democrats (which seeks particularly to liberate people sexually from community judgments and rules) is closely connected to the efforts by the GOP to do the same for people in the business area. They are based on a common view of what it means to be human, a particular view of what freedom is, and so forth. These assumptions are not really so fundamentally shared outside North America. So in both Sweden and Denmark, society looks a lot more like it did structurally to Aristotle than to Hobbes -- strong family households joining together in local communities to address common issues. Those local communities joining together into larger and larger units to address common needs until you have the overall kingdom. These places are less individualist and more localist. Growing up in small towns in the US, I can also tell you that this Business Liberalism is most heavily a force politically in the urban centers of the GOP. Rural politicians don't tend to push it in the same way.
- FabHK 7y ago
  1) I would not include Rousseau among the fathers, but among the enemies of Liberalism. 2) I think the discourse in the USA has been heavily tilted in favour of libertarianism (maybe what you call "Business Liberalism") by concerted subversive effort sponsored by Koch, Mercer, etc., as outlined eg in the book Dark Money by Jane Mayer.