5 ms·

I disagree. OOP and inheritance is fine, and so is just about every feature/paradigm/language/anything in programming, when used thoughtfully by an experienced

I disagree. OOP and inheritance is fine, and so is just about every feature/paradigm/language/anything in programming, when used thoughtfully by an experienced developer. For instance, inheritance can often be used nicely at a framework or engine level. Most people are just inexperienced and bad at programming, and bad at managing large projects, and if a lot of bad programmers and managers happen to be using some paradigm or feature or language, it is often the paradigm that takes the blame for their shoddy work because nobody is willing to admit that they are the ones at fault. Functional programming feels nice to everyone right now, because lots of experienced developers are enjoying themselves with it, and writing decent code. But mark my words: that good feeling will end once it gets too popular and adopted by new developers. And then people will blame Functional Programming for all the awful work people do in it. If you think I'm wrong, you are way underestimating how bad new software developers can be. We don't throw away all our hammers just because some bad construction workers use hammers on the wrong things.

squirrelicus 7y ago
I wish I could talk to you 5 or 10 years down the road when you have discovered and internalized the reality that a) there are no good programmers b) the programmers you're complaining about will never go away c) you're one of them My contention against OOP is that it is a pattern that encourages critical mistakes that composition-based systems does not encourage. My contention against FP is that it discourages small amounts of state (e.g. that doesn't leave the scope of the current function) and instead encourages many mental leaps to wrap your head around the transducer or whatever. But if I had to pick one, FP tends to produce higher quality code.
- fragsworth 7y ago
  I've been programming for 20+ years now, nearly fulltime, and worked with many other programmers for the entire time. There are plenty of good programmers, and they all have a lot of experience. I've learned to tell the difference. It took a long time. Your blanket statement that developers are all bad is simply wrong, there are vast differences between them. Maybe to put it in terms you seem to prefer: some are "less bad" than others. And not everyone is bad in the same way, either. But you're right, the programmers I'm complaining about will never go away, because there will always be new programmers, and old ones will retire or die. My only point was that everyone's impression that FP tends to produce higher quality code is largely based on a selection bias from the code you've read, or based on your own attempt to learn the paradigm after already having had some amount of experience. I witnessed firsthand the rise and fall of many paradigms in programming. I've witnessed it with NoSQL. And Agile. The same thing is likely to happen to Functional Programming, if it becomes too popular too quickly. When you see companies starting to post jobs with "Functional Programming experience required", that's when you're reaching peak, and a bunch of new (bad) developers will come in and ruin everyone's impression of the paradigm.
  - squirrelicus 7y ago
    The industry is very new. The rise and fall is natural (lolwat data mining?). But the function is not uniform. MongoDB might be one of the worst tools on the planet for relational data, but data that's only accessed by id and is dominated by variable length data? There's no better db on the market. Agile? Well, nobody's figured any of that stuff out yet, to say the least. We can't even estimate basic tasks still, so planning is strictly fucked until we can. Additionally, there are so many things to learn, especially for up and coming developers that it's nearly impossible to select good tooling to learn in the first place. So you'll have them randomly spread across the tooling which, again, is indistinguishable from each other from the perspective of a new developer. I guess my point is that you're complecting two orthogonal concerns: the process of figuring out this software thing (still in it's infancy), and the process of bringing up juniors. Consequently, what juniors do before they gain sufficient training shouldn't have much impact on the value of tooling. That is, unless the tooling in question causes the juniors to make unnecessary critical mistakes because the tooling encourages it. QED I suppose.
jm__87 7y ago
By your logic, why do we bother with a guard on a tablesaw? The only people who chop their fingers off are inexperienced or bad at sawing things, they shouldn't be using it in the first place. Experienced carpenters never have a lapse in attention or judgement and will never cut their fingers.
- OJFord 7y ago
  The metaphor would work better if professionals (or even any significant number of amateurs?) actually used a guard on a tablesaw.

squirrelicus 7y ago

I wish I could talk to you 5 or 10 years down the road when you have discovered and internalized the reality that a) there are no good programmers b) the programmers you're complaining about will never go away c) you're one of them My contention against OOP is that it is a pattern that encourages critical mistakes that composition-based systems does not encourage. My contention against FP is that it discourages small amounts of state (e.g. that doesn't leave the scope of the current function) and instead encourages many mental leaps to wrap your head around the transducer or whatever. But if I had to pick one, FP tends to produce higher quality code.

fragsworth 7y ago
I've been programming for 20+ years now, nearly fulltime, and worked with many other programmers for the entire time. There are plenty of good programmers, and they all have a lot of experience. I've learned to tell the difference. It took a long time. Your blanket statement that developers are all bad is simply wrong, there are vast differences between them. Maybe to put it in terms you seem to prefer: some are "less bad" than others. And not everyone is bad in the same way, either. But you're right, the programmers I'm complaining about will never go away, because there will always be new programmers, and old ones will retire or die. My only point was that everyone's impression that FP tends to produce higher quality code is largely based on a selection bias from the code you've read, or based on your own attempt to learn the paradigm after already having had some amount of experience. I witnessed firsthand the rise and fall of many paradigms in programming. I've witnessed it with NoSQL. And Agile. The same thing is likely to happen to Functional Programming, if it becomes too popular too quickly. When you see companies starting to post jobs with "Functional Programming experience required", that's when you're reaching peak, and a bunch of new (bad) developers will come in and ruin everyone's impression of the paradigm.
- squirrelicus 7y ago
  The industry is very new. The rise and fall is natural (lolwat data mining?). But the function is not uniform. MongoDB might be one of the worst tools on the planet for relational data, but data that's only accessed by id and is dominated by variable length data? There's no better db on the market. Agile? Well, nobody's figured any of that stuff out yet, to say the least. We can't even estimate basic tasks still, so planning is strictly fucked until we can. Additionally, there are so many things to learn, especially for up and coming developers that it's nearly impossible to select good tooling to learn in the first place. So you'll have them randomly spread across the tooling which, again, is indistinguishable from each other from the perspective of a new developer. I guess my point is that you're complecting two orthogonal concerns: the process of figuring out this software thing (still in it's infancy), and the process of bringing up juniors. Consequently, what juniors do before they gain sufficient training shouldn't have much impact on the value of tooling. That is, unless the tooling in question causes the juniors to make unnecessary critical mistakes because the tooling encourages it. QED I suppose.

jm__87 7y ago

By your logic, why do we bother with a guard on a tablesaw? The only people who chop their fingers off are inexperienced or bad at sawing things, they shouldn't be using it in the first place. Experienced carpenters never have a lapse in attention or judgement and will never cut their fingers.

OJFord 7y ago
The metaphor would work better if professionals (or even any significant number of amateurs?) actually used a guard on a tablesaw.