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I am from Brazil, my SO family is from the Amazon. A lot of this situation is rather complicated, but I will try to write a little of what I know. 1. This is

I am from Brazil, my SO family is from the Amazon. A lot of this situation is rather complicated, but I will try to write a little of what I know. 1. This is dry season, and fires are common, not just human-started ones, natural fires are common too, fires do have a role in the ecosystem. 2. A lot of the alarm raised by the media is more due to the hate on the president than for good reasons, for example people are using as number of the "increase of fires" comparisons between 2019 and 2013, but 2013 was a year where the amount of fires was particularly low, there was some recent years where the number of fires were just a little behind the current number, and the current number is still waaaaay smaller than what it was some decades ago. 3. It is illegal to clear land using fire in Brazil, usually the ones doing it are tiny farmers that don't have resources to clear land the correct way, or megacorporations that don't care (Cargill is a common culprit, not saying they are the ones at fault this time, but often they are). 4. Brazillian laws are kinda loopsided in ways that incentive people to do some weird stuff, for example brazillian environment laws are MUCH, MUCH harsher than other laws, this actually decreases compliance, because getting caught is so dangerous compared to some other crimes, that doing other crimes to not get caught is incentivized, there was a infamous case of a mayor of a town that just outright murdered cops because the punishment for murder was smaller than the punishment he would get if the cops managed to get to his property and investigate it.

einpoklum 7y ago
1. "Fires are common" - means Brazil should have been ready to tackle them, and taken steps to minimize the chances of them breaking out in areas where people are active. It seems it hasn't; and - on the contrary, has let logging and other economic activity which can increase chances of fires expand excessively and without proper regulation. Finally, researchers claim that most fires right now are caused by humans (and many started intentionally): https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/brazils-amazon-fires-started-by-humans-environmentalists-say/ar-AAGb8KR?li=AAggFp4 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/brazils-amazon-fires-st... 2. How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President"? Also, the increase of fires should and can measured relative to _last_ year, not 2013. Since 2014 there was a gradual decrease, and the amount/area of fires has nearly doubled from 2018 to this year. 3. If it's illegal and damaging, why are people and corporations doing it, and doing it much more this year? It seems that to a great extent this is due to the new government's policy and rhetoric; and to a lesser extent it's an ongoing problem which both the previous and the current government have not addressed well enough. 4. Well, it seems the government is trying to avoid enforcing these harsh laws. For example: > The environmental minister, Ricardo Salles, tweeted on Wednesday that the fires were caused by dry weather, wind, and heat. But CNN meteorologist Haley Brink said the fires are "definitely human-induced," and can't be attributed to natural causes like lightning strikes. so it seems the government is voluntarily looking the other way. If it claims this is the cause, they are unlikely to vigorously pursue the culprits. Bottom line: Don't do apologism for the government. Its behavior on environmental issues is inexcusable, regardless of any other issues.
- andrenth 7y ago
  The article you linked is based on hearsay and people with explicit political agendas, not on facts. For example, the "unprecedented destruction" claimed by Mr. Poirier (a former assistant to Brazil's Landless Workers Movement, a far-left, anti-property rights, violent organization), is easily proven false. Just check the actual historical data and see for yourself (choose "Brasil" in the drop-down menu): http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_paises http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_pa... > How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President" Worse wildfires and budget cuts have happened at much larger scale than now on previous administrations, to be met with no international outrage at all.
  - barberousse 7y ago
    > Worse wildfires and budget cuts have happened at much larger scale than now on previous administrations, to be met with no international outrage at all. Except we're in the middle of evident climate change and more than ever has attention on environmental degradation been higher
    - andrenth 7y ago
      Why is no one talking about Bolivia then? They’re going through one of the largest fires ever, they have much laxer protection laws than Brazil, and yet no European government is threatening their sovereignty.
    - zekrioca 7y ago
      Who is “we”? Climate change has been here since forever. You may very well be just reading the news about it more often.
- rodolphoarruda 7y ago
  > 1. "Fires are common" - means Brazil should have been ready to tackle them No, they are common because historically it has been impossible to stop them giving the limited reach of the government in the region. For example, not a single word coming from state governors about the problem. There are 8 of them all silent. Why? What happened to the "local authorities" that should be working on issue since day 1? > 2. How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President"? Because we saw no alarms to previous presidents in the tenures. Fires were orders of magnitude larger due to lack of interest or attention to environmental causes in general. So, yes, it has to do with the pressure groups' desire to damage this President's image, specially abroad (hence Macron). > 3. If it's illegal and damaging, why are people and corporations doing it, and doing it much more this year? Which corporations? Any names? Are they equally exposed in a negative fashion by media? Any boycotts? Why aren't they sharing headlines with government names in the news? The justice minister and half the congress love to play the good guys who go after corrupt corporations (does Car Wash Operation ring a bell?). They have put a dozen CEOs from the most well known Brazilian corps in jail already. Not a single one from crimes against the environment. Why? > 4. it seems the government is trying to avoid enforcing these harsh laws Law enforcement in continent sized developing countries is VERY difficult, let alone in distant isolated parts of the territory. The level of violence and corruption in those places is beyond mind boggling even to locals that were borne and raised in the culture. For outsiders like us -- looking at the problem from various angles and distances -- the environmental issue in the Amazon is equally complex as the ones we see in the middle east, in the Gaza strip, in hunger regions of Africa etc. This is something that may drag on for decades without a definitive solution, which is a sad thought for me as a Brazilian.
DjiboutiJon 7y ago
What you say makes sense, and I understand that it may be anecdotal but I was hoping you had some sources that could enlighten a foreigner like myself to why/how the above explanations make sense? I would appreciate it! I ask because the Americans/South Americans around me seem only to be able react to the media hype/lack thereof. For example all my friends from SA are on IG all day saying that the paucity of international coverage on the Amazon fires shows marked unfairness, which may be true- but they haven't investigated at all beyond the realm of "forest good, fire bad". For my own sake, I desire to know the context of this fire, in the society which it is affecting and not from the United States point of view.
- gleglegle 7y ago
  His explanation is misleading. These are man-made fires caused by massive deforestation. Sources: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-why-amazon-rainforest-is-on-fire/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-why-amazon-rainfores... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.ful... https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/08/22/photos-heres-how-amazon-wildfires-deforestation-look-space/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/08/22/photos-her...
fnordsensei 7y ago
Though I'm not sure what you would accept as a good reason to raise alarm, I think the press is not unfounded in scrutinizing him. Bolsonaro exhibits some worrying traits, such as the recent conspiratorial line of thought that NGOs would have started the fires to get back at him.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  I dislike Bolsonaro as much as the next guy (probably more), but that's beside the point. I mean, not in terms of the motivations for his government's policy perhaps, but in terms of the bottom line: The Amazon is burning much too much this year. Even if it had been Mr. Lula, or Ms. Rousef, and the fires had been the same, there would have been the exact same level of criticism due on the environmental issue.
  - fnordsensei 7y ago
    I'm not saying that Brazil has had a stellar line-up of presidents, and anyone would have had to react to this, and the mettle of the person would be seen in their response. Bolsonaro's was essentially, "it's a conspiracy against me". It's a pretty extraordinary idea to begin with, and stating it as fact to the press without backing it up with evidence makes my alarms go off at least.
  - andrenth 7y ago
    There were much worse fires in those administrations, and no internation commotion and criticism like what we're seeing now. http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_paises http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_pa... The Amazon is not "burning too much". It's in fact below the historical average.
    - lbrito 7y ago
      >There were much worse fires in those administrations, and no internation commotion and criticism like what we're seeing now. Perhaps because those offices weren't publicly, overtly and self-admittedly anti-environment. They didn't call themselves "Captain Chainsaw", for one.
immortalx 7y ago
Article from NASA: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-brazil https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-bra... "In the Amazon region, fires are rare for much of the year because wet weather prevents them from starting and spreading. However, in July and August, activity typically increases due to the arrival of the dry season. Many people use fire to maintain farmland and pastures or to clear land for other purposes. Typically, activity peaks in early September and mostly stops by November."
- zekrioca 7y ago
  Map of the “Amazon region”: http://www.clickamazonia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/história-Amazônia-mapa_amazonia.jpg http://www.clickamazonia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/h...
gleglegle 7y ago
Your first point is misleading. Satellite imagery and in the ground evidence clearly shows that the fires are almost exclusively driven by humans. Not wildfires. This is conscious deforestation at a massive scale. The dry season has made the problem worse, but it is an unusually dry season due to climate change. Bolsonaro has definitely encouraged deforestation.
- ikll 7y ago
  Yes. Bolsonaro himself has claimed that the fires were started by humans: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769327
  - gleglegle 7y ago
    Blaming NGO's is ridiculous gaslighting. Agriculture and forestry drive Brazil's forest loss. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.ful...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lowdose 7y ago
And the most crazy part that people like Macron are calling for this. France is one of the biggest importers of soya. Greenpeace even physically blocked a ship two months ago demanding France proved no rain forest was destroyed on the account of producing the soya on board. France will be impacted more severe by climate change than most European countries but has no actual plan to realize their commitment on the Paris accord. Macron should address the 8 million diesel cars on the road in France instead of complaining about Brazil. Macron should start by demanding a recall of those diesel gate vehicles by the manufacturers because diesel cars have been sold under false pretenses. European law is very clear about the fact the burden of proof is on the business they actually delivered a product as advertised. Hence consumers in Europe do not have to get an extra Apple insurance in contrary to US consumers because this is already factored in a higher buying price. But it is way more practical to shovel external costs of ghg emissions to next generations. And make some double speak comments on twitter. At least Trump doesn't pretend to be the good guy, Macron is such a hypocrite. If Macron was my neighbor I would spank him in front of his children.

einpoklum 7y ago

1. "Fires are common" - means Brazil should have been ready to tackle them, and taken steps to minimize the chances of them breaking out in areas where people are active. It seems it hasn't; and - on the contrary, has let logging and other economic activity which can increase chances of fires expand excessively and without proper regulation. Finally, researchers claim that most fires right now are caused by humans (and many started intentionally): https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/brazils-amazon-fires-started-by-humans-environmentalists-say/ar-AAGb8KR?li=AAggFp4 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/brazils-amazon-fires-st... 2. How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President"? Also, the increase of fires should and can measured relative to _last_ year, not 2013. Since 2014 there was a gradual decrease, and the amount/area of fires has nearly doubled from 2018 to this year. 3. If it's illegal and damaging, why are people and corporations doing it, and doing it much more this year? It seems that to a great extent this is due to the new government's policy and rhetoric; and to a lesser extent it's an ongoing problem which both the previous and the current government have not addressed well enough. 4. Well, it seems the government is trying to avoid enforcing these harsh laws. For example: > The environmental minister, Ricardo Salles, tweeted on Wednesday that the fires were caused by dry weather, wind, and heat. But CNN meteorologist Haley Brink said the fires are "definitely human-induced," and can't be attributed to natural causes like lightning strikes. so it seems the government is voluntarily looking the other way. If it claims this is the cause, they are unlikely to vigorously pursue the culprits. Bottom line: Don't do apologism for the government. Its behavior on environmental issues is inexcusable, regardless of any other issues.

andrenth 7y ago
The article you linked is based on hearsay and people with explicit political agendas, not on facts. For example, the "unprecedented destruction" claimed by Mr. Poirier (a former assistant to Brazil's Landless Workers Movement, a far-left, anti-property rights, violent organization), is easily proven false. Just check the actual historical data and see for yourself (choose "Brasil" in the drop-down menu): http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_paises http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_pa... > How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President" Worse wildfires and budget cuts have happened at much larger scale than now on previous administrations, to be met with no international outrage at all.
- barberousse 7y ago
  > Worse wildfires and budget cuts have happened at much larger scale than now on previous administrations, to be met with no international outrage at all. Except we're in the middle of evident climate change and more than ever has attention on environmental degradation been higher
  - andrenth 7y ago
    Why is no one talking about Bolivia then? They’re going through one of the largest fires ever, they have much laxer protection laws than Brazil, and yet no European government is threatening their sovereignty.
  - zekrioca 7y ago
    Who is “we”? Climate change has been here since forever. You may very well be just reading the news about it more often.
rodolphoarruda 7y ago
> 1. "Fires are common" - means Brazil should have been ready to tackle them No, they are common because historically it has been impossible to stop them giving the limited reach of the government in the region. For example, not a single word coming from state governors about the problem. There are 8 of them all silent. Why? What happened to the "local authorities" that should be working on issue since day 1? > 2. How do you know the alarm is due to the "hate on the President"? Because we saw no alarms to previous presidents in the tenures. Fires were orders of magnitude larger due to lack of interest or attention to environmental causes in general. So, yes, it has to do with the pressure groups' desire to damage this President's image, specially abroad (hence Macron). > 3. If it's illegal and damaging, why are people and corporations doing it, and doing it much more this year? Which corporations? Any names? Are they equally exposed in a negative fashion by media? Any boycotts? Why aren't they sharing headlines with government names in the news? The justice minister and half the congress love to play the good guys who go after corrupt corporations (does Car Wash Operation ring a bell?). They have put a dozen CEOs from the most well known Brazilian corps in jail already. Not a single one from crimes against the environment. Why? > 4. it seems the government is trying to avoid enforcing these harsh laws Law enforcement in continent sized developing countries is VERY difficult, let alone in distant isolated parts of the territory. The level of violence and corruption in those places is beyond mind boggling even to locals that were borne and raised in the culture. For outsiders like us -- looking at the problem from various angles and distances -- the environmental issue in the Amazon is equally complex as the ones we see in the middle east, in the Gaza strip, in hunger regions of Africa etc. This is something that may drag on for decades without a definitive solution, which is a sad thought for me as a Brazilian.

DjiboutiJon 7y ago

What you say makes sense, and I understand that it may be anecdotal but I was hoping you had some sources that could enlighten a foreigner like myself to why/how the above explanations make sense? I would appreciate it! I ask because the Americans/South Americans around me seem only to be able react to the media hype/lack thereof. For example all my friends from SA are on IG all day saying that the paucity of international coverage on the Amazon fires shows marked unfairness, which may be true- but they haven't investigated at all beyond the realm of "forest good, fire bad". For my own sake, I desire to know the context of this fire, in the society which it is affecting and not from the United States point of view.

gleglegle 7y ago
His explanation is misleading. These are man-made fires caused by massive deforestation. Sources: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-why-amazon-rainforest-is-on-fire/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-why-amazon-rainfores... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.ful... https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/08/22/photos-heres-how-amazon-wildfires-deforestation-look-space/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/08/22/photos-her...

fnordsensei 7y ago

Though I'm not sure what you would accept as a good reason to raise alarm, I think the press is not unfounded in scrutinizing him. Bolsonaro exhibits some worrying traits, such as the recent conspiratorial line of thought that NGOs would have started the fires to get back at him.

einpoklum 7y ago
I dislike Bolsonaro as much as the next guy (probably more), but that's beside the point. I mean, not in terms of the motivations for his government's policy perhaps, but in terms of the bottom line: The Amazon is burning much too much this year. Even if it had been Mr. Lula, or Ms. Rousef, and the fires had been the same, there would have been the exact same level of criticism due on the environmental issue.
- fnordsensei 7y ago
  I'm not saying that Brazil has had a stellar line-up of presidents, and anyone would have had to react to this, and the mettle of the person would be seen in their response. Bolsonaro's was essentially, "it's a conspiracy against me". It's a pretty extraordinary idea to begin with, and stating it as fact to the press without backing it up with evidence makes my alarms go off at least.
- andrenth 7y ago
  There were much worse fires in those administrations, and no internation commotion and criticism like what we're seeing now. http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_paises http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_pa... The Amazon is not "burning too much". It's in fact below the historical average.
  - lbrito 7y ago
    >There were much worse fires in those administrations, and no internation commotion and criticism like what we're seeing now. Perhaps because those offices weren't publicly, overtly and self-admittedly anti-environment. They didn't call themselves "Captain Chainsaw", for one.

immortalx 7y ago

Article from NASA: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-brazil https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-bra... "In the Amazon region, fires are rare for much of the year because wet weather prevents them from starting and spreading. However, in July and August, activity typically increases due to the arrival of the dry season. Many people use fire to maintain farmland and pastures or to clear land for other purposes. Typically, activity peaks in early September and mostly stops by November."

zekrioca 7y ago
Map of the “Amazon region”: http://www.clickamazonia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/história-Amazônia-mapa_amazonia.jpg http://www.clickamazonia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/h...

gleglegle 7y ago

Your first point is misleading. Satellite imagery and in the ground evidence clearly shows that the fires are almost exclusively driven by humans. Not wildfires. This is conscious deforestation at a massive scale. The dry season has made the problem worse, but it is an unusually dry season due to climate change. Bolsonaro has definitely encouraged deforestation.

ikll 7y ago
Yes. Bolsonaro himself has claimed that the fires were started by humans: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769327
- gleglegle 7y ago
  Blaming NGO's is ridiculous gaslighting. Agriculture and forestry drive Brazil's forest loss. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6407/1108.ful...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lowdose 7y ago

And the most crazy part that people like Macron are calling for this. France is one of the biggest importers of soya. Greenpeace even physically blocked a ship two months ago demanding France proved no rain forest was destroyed on the account of producing the soya on board. France will be impacted more severe by climate change than most European countries but has no actual plan to realize their commitment on the Paris accord. Macron should address the 8 million diesel cars on the road in France instead of complaining about Brazil. Macron should start by demanding a recall of those diesel gate vehicles by the manufacturers because diesel cars have been sold under false pretenses. European law is very clear about the fact the burden of proof is on the business they actually delivered a product as advertised. Hence consumers in Europe do not have to get an extra Apple insurance in contrary to US consumers because this is already factored in a higher buying price. But it is way more practical to shovel external costs of ghg emissions to next generations. And make some double speak comments on twitter. At least Trump doesn't pretend to be the good guy, Macron is such a hypocrite. If Macron was my neighbor I would spank him in front of his children.