6 ms·

Solving community problems come with community sacrifices. I'm a big proponent of housing first, drug rehab second. It is exponentially harder to get clean with

by notus 7y ago

Solving community problems come with community sacrifices. I'm a big proponent of housing first, drug rehab second. It is exponentially harder to get clean without housing and a support network. Decriminalizing drug addiction is a good step in that direction IMO. I think another side of this coin though is we need to bring back institutionalization of mental health care. Implemented today it would be vastly different from the 80's and before because our understanding of therapy has gone from stirring up and injecting memories into people to cognitive behavioral therapy which is very much a feel good form of therapy. I question your statement about the guy on the 1-5 ramp attempting to throw small women off the overpass. How is attempted defined here? Does he grab them? If so he would definitely be arrested for battery charges. I get the impression he is probably chasing them and saying he is going to do it. That seems like a legitimate reason to get someone mental health help but not a legitimate reason to incarcerate someone. As long as we have this gaping hole in our system that just ignores mental health problems or tries to categorize them as criminal we will continue to have this problem. Source on housing first being effective: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.94.4.651 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.94.4...

awakeasleep 7y ago
Housing first is effective for people who want our idea of a 'normal lifestyle' I think people in this thread are asking you to question your assumption- do you think every drug addict on the west coast wants to hold down a job and live our normal life?
- Miner49er 7y ago
  Why are you assuming that giving a person a house means they have to have a normal life? Can't they live in the house and continue not to have a job and continue living a non-normal life and get clean too?
- notus 7y ago
  People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit. They have problems, they use the drugs to medicate or fit in, the problems compound with drug use, so they use more to deal with the problems more. They are also ostracized by communities which nobody likes as we are social creatures. The level of that social exclusion probably depends a lot on their current level of wealth. People like having shelter and their physical needs met and while they might not necessarily want normal either, I'd argue a big part of that is more that they have poor coping strategies and don't now how to cope with normal. There will always be people who don't fall into certain strategies for combating homelessness and drug addiction, but this is a much better approach than doing what amounts to nothing.
  - sukilot 7y ago
    > People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit. Non-addicts don't. Addicts do. Addictive people are stuck in the middle oscillating. Free will + mind-altering drugs is a fundamentally hard problem.
    - notus 7y ago
      I definitely disagree. The oscillation is not out of actually wanting to be addicts, it is because they lack the coping skills to deal with trying to get clean and dealing with the world on someone's terms other than their own. There is a big difference between wanting to be something and feeling like you have no other alternatives other than to become that something.
  - derefr 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure that for a lot of these people, their "dream life" would be one in which they're a productive member of society and use drugs all day, and the drugs just happen to have no negative side-effects. People don't want to live like drug addicts; but nor do they want to stop using drugs. To reverse the timeline of an obvious example: the people on the street addicted to heroin, would much rather just become people working regular jobs who are prescribed heroin. These people probably they got addicted to heroin because of chronic pain, and probably that chronic pain hasn't gone away. So any time the heroin is wearing off, the pain comes back, and that decreases the amount of energy/willpower they have to do anything besides the simplest, shortest-term thing they can do to stave off the pain: buy more street heroin. You might wean them off heroin, but you aren't gonna make them not take some painkiller, because they still have chronic pain. They'll always be "a drug addict" in a technical sense; they need painkillers the same way people with diabetes need insulin.
- cheriot 7y ago
  > do you think every drug addict on the west coast wants to hold down a job and live our normal life? That's not the relevant question. Is it better for the rest of us if that drug addict is on the side walk or living inside? In the latter case, there's a better chance of treatment success, but it's also better when they remain addicts.
cavisne 7y ago
Here's more details on I-5 guy, https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-attempted-to-throw-woman-off-I-5-13701108.php https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-att... So he only * pepper sprayed someone * punched multiple people in the face This wasnt enough for him to be charged.

by notus 7y ago

awakeasleep 7y ago

Housing first is effective for people who want our idea of a 'normal lifestyle' I think people in this thread are asking you to question your assumption- do you think every drug addict on the west coast wants to hold down a job and live our normal life?

Miner49er 7y ago
Why are you assuming that giving a person a house means they have to have a normal life? Can't they live in the house and continue not to have a job and continue living a non-normal life and get clean too?
notus 7y ago
People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit. They have problems, they use the drugs to medicate or fit in, the problems compound with drug use, so they use more to deal with the problems more. They are also ostracized by communities which nobody likes as we are social creatures. The level of that social exclusion probably depends a lot on their current level of wealth. People like having shelter and their physical needs met and while they might not necessarily want normal either, I'd argue a big part of that is more that they have poor coping strategies and don't now how to cope with normal. There will always be people who don't fall into certain strategies for combating homelessness and drug addiction, but this is a much better approach than doing what amounts to nothing.
- sukilot 7y ago
  > People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit. Non-addicts don't. Addicts do. Addictive people are stuck in the middle oscillating. Free will + mind-altering drugs is a fundamentally hard problem.
  - notus 7y ago
    I definitely disagree. The oscillation is not out of actually wanting to be addicts, it is because they lack the coping skills to deal with trying to get clean and dealing with the world on someone's terms other than their own. There is a big difference between wanting to be something and feeling like you have no other alternatives other than to become that something.
- derefr 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure that for a lot of these people, their "dream life" would be one in which they're a productive member of society and use drugs all day, and the drugs just happen to have no negative side-effects. People don't want to live like drug addicts; but nor do they want to stop using drugs. To reverse the timeline of an obvious example: the people on the street addicted to heroin, would much rather just become people working regular jobs who are prescribed heroin. These people probably they got addicted to heroin because of chronic pain, and probably that chronic pain hasn't gone away. So any time the heroin is wearing off, the pain comes back, and that decreases the amount of energy/willpower they have to do anything besides the simplest, shortest-term thing they can do to stave off the pain: buy more street heroin. You might wean them off heroin, but you aren't gonna make them not take some painkiller, because they still have chronic pain. They'll always be "a drug addict" in a technical sense; they need painkillers the same way people with diabetes need insulin.
cheriot 7y ago
> do you think every drug addict on the west coast wants to hold down a job and live our normal life? That's not the relevant question. Is it better for the rest of us if that drug addict is on the side walk or living inside? In the latter case, there's a better chance of treatment success, but it's also better when they remain addicts.

cavisne 7y ago

Here's more details on I-5 guy, https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-attempted-to-throw-woman-off-I-5-13701108.php https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-att... So he only * pepper sprayed someone * punched multiple people in the face This wasnt enough for him to be charged.