6 ms·

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadil

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. There is just a certain amount of crime and drug use that will always exist in the big city. No amount of 'tough on crime' policing will make it go away.

nikanj 7y ago
In the 80s people actually reported petty crime, and expected something to come out of it.
- shados 7y ago
  Don't only do they no longer do, you're considered crazy, awful or entitled for even considering it.
jrockway 7y ago
I think people are also ignoring the fact the drug use might not correlate with the crimes these people are committing. Perhaps they are just mentally ill, with no access to proper care, and are self-medicating. Jailing them will never solve the problem. Affordable healthcare might, however. But oh no, then we'd have to pay taxes! We don't want a safe city that badly.
- newfriend 7y ago
  Jailing someone who is committing crimes instantly solves that problem. The perpetrator is off the street, unable to commit more crimes. Treating criminals like victims, instead of showing empathy for the actual victims of these crimes is disgusting. Honest people should not be made to suffer at the hands of some junkies who can't control their urges and are compelled to commit crimes to feed their addictions.
nostromo 7y ago
"It's better now than it was during the worst crime wave in American history -- the 1980s." You're not wrong, but you're also not setting a very high bar. I think it's important that cities be safe, livable places. Seattle still is, for the most part. But ask some of your younger, single female friends where they will and will not go at night, and you may be surprised that it includes a large number of neighborhoods.
- redisman 7y ago
  I'm a married 30s man and I wouldn't go to many Seattle downtown neighborhoods at night.
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    I do regularly, it's fine. There are a couple specific areas I do avoid in the dead of night, but that's been true of every city I've lived in.
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    I think he means most places south of downtown
entropea 7y ago
This is exactly it. It's almost totally a non-issue. I see orange needle caps and the occasional needle, but these junkies aren't attacking everyone, in fact you can just ignore them. I walk around in a dress downtown and on cap hill with zero issues. Never been attacked, assaulted, nothing. They lay in parks on cardboard and trash, but...so? Are they doing anything illegal? Comfortable salaried people love to make a big issue about it because Seattle isn't scrubbed clean to perfection and they see a mess every once in awhile, but really the city isn't bad at all and isn't full of rampant crime.
- allana 7y ago
  We do steam clean the streets in Downtown Seattle (and have been doing that for decades), its part of why Seattle is so much cleaner than other cities. Our new Park Ambassadors are here to help make the parks more inviting to be in: https://downtownseattle.org/about/careers/park-ambassador-parks-plazas/ https://downtownseattle.org/about/careers/park-ambassador-pa... The root issue, severe wealth stratification leading to hopelessness and escapism via drugs is something no city can address on its own. We need national policy change to provide opportunities for the majority of Americans. Short of that, this problem will continue :c
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jdpedrie 7y ago
> Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. And most cities are worlds better to live in than they were in the 1980s. Why would you want to go back?
CPLX 7y ago
When people write responses like this I wonder if they’ve ever been to New York City. We don’t really have comparable problems. For me visiting LA, SF or Seattle is jaw dropping. I totally reject this idea that these situations are just inevitable.
- chrisrogers 7y ago
  Or Tokyo, for that matter. That's about as urban as you can get on Earth, with none of the 'grittiness' that so many West coast city-dwellers seem to think is inherent to cities. And in a comparable democracy, no less.
  - shados 7y ago
    This is a pretty important point. Everything wrong with big American cities is normalized. If you don't like it, you're told to just go to the suburb. But it's all solvable and are usually consequences of policies as well as cultural problems. Many cities in the world just don't have these problems.
    - rdtwo 7y ago
      Suburbs are how America does segregation and separate but equal legally. We have “cities” next to major urban centers that can keep all their taxes dollars locally and shift their problems to urban centers. If you live in a nice neighborhood in the city of Seattle a good chunk of your money goes to fund poor parts of town and the homeless industry. Half a mile away the neighboring town keeps all its money for the local school and sends its homeless people to Seattle.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  That's just objectively wrong. NYC has a higher homeless population both in sheer volume and per 100,000 people. So what is NYC doing to stop the growth of their homeless population beyond making it out of sight and out of mind?
  - deleted 7y ago
Gaelan 7y ago
Honest Q: how is crime rate measured? If police stopped enforcing laws against, say, shoplifting, and the rate of shoplifting did not change, would the crime rate go down?
- munificent 7y ago
  Yes, most crime rate statistics are based on reported crimes. This is particularly problematic in Seattle. Because many citizens now understand that police won't respond to minor crimes, especially property crimes, people just don't report them at all. In the past few years, I've personally experienced someone climbing a fence to enter my back yard, shitting in my alley, stealing property from my porch, pissing on my garage, stealing from my trash (multiple times). None of those will show up on crime statistics even though they are illegal because I didn't call in since I knew the cops didn't have the capacity to do anything.
- rdtwo 7y ago
  Yeah since drug use is no longer a crime and since possession is legal the number of crimes is down. We could decrease the numbers even more if we fired the remaining police officers.
mehrdadn 7y ago
> Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. Someone else says the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20780632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20780632 Not sure which one is correct...
- thomasmeeks 7y ago
  It is down: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/is-seattle-dying-not-if-you-look-crime-rates-from-the-80s-and-90s/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/is-seattle-dy...
- Fellshard 7y ago
  When I see conflicting stories like that, especially regarding a topic like this, I'd immediately check the definitions each party is using.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Yeah, that's why I commented. So they could resolve explain what they meant and hopefully resolve the discrepancy.
m0zg 7y ago
>> has been steadily declining since the 1980s And it'll "decline" further after this now that petty theft and shooting heroin in full view of the public is not a crime. Abolish all laws and it'll go down to zero, woo-hoo! I fear that the secondary effect of this will be to attract even more homeless heroin addicts from places where these things are still crimes.

nikanj 7y ago

In the 80s people actually reported petty crime, and expected something to come out of it.

shados 7y ago
Don't only do they no longer do, you're considered crazy, awful or entitled for even considering it.

jrockway 7y ago

I think people are also ignoring the fact the drug use might not correlate with the crimes these people are committing. Perhaps they are just mentally ill, with no access to proper care, and are self-medicating. Jailing them will never solve the problem. Affordable healthcare might, however. But oh no, then we'd have to pay taxes! We don't want a safe city that badly.

newfriend 7y ago
Jailing someone who is committing crimes instantly solves that problem. The perpetrator is off the street, unable to commit more crimes. Treating criminals like victims, instead of showing empathy for the actual victims of these crimes is disgusting. Honest people should not be made to suffer at the hands of some junkies who can't control their urges and are compelled to commit crimes to feed their addictions.

nostromo 7y ago

"It's better now than it was during the worst crime wave in American history -- the 1980s." You're not wrong, but you're also not setting a very high bar. I think it's important that cities be safe, livable places. Seattle still is, for the most part. But ask some of your younger, single female friends where they will and will not go at night, and you may be surprised that it includes a large number of neighborhoods.

redisman 7y ago
I'm a married 30s man and I wouldn't go to many Seattle downtown neighborhoods at night.
- thomasmeeks 7y ago
  I do regularly, it's fine. There are a couple specific areas I do avoid in the dead of night, but that's been true of every city I've lived in.
- rdtwo 7y ago
  I think he means most places south of downtown

entropea 7y ago

This is exactly it. It's almost totally a non-issue. I see orange needle caps and the occasional needle, but these junkies aren't attacking everyone, in fact you can just ignore them. I walk around in a dress downtown and on cap hill with zero issues. Never been attacked, assaulted, nothing. They lay in parks on cardboard and trash, but...so? Are they doing anything illegal? Comfortable salaried people love to make a big issue about it because Seattle isn't scrubbed clean to perfection and they see a mess every once in awhile, but really the city isn't bad at all and isn't full of rampant crime.

allana 7y ago
We do steam clean the streets in Downtown Seattle (and have been doing that for decades), its part of why Seattle is so much cleaner than other cities. Our new Park Ambassadors are here to help make the parks more inviting to be in: https://downtownseattle.org/about/careers/park-ambassador-parks-plazas/ https://downtownseattle.org/about/careers/park-ambassador-pa... The root issue, severe wealth stratification leading to hopelessness and escapism via drugs is something no city can address on its own. We need national policy change to provide opportunities for the majority of Americans. Short of that, this problem will continue :c

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jdpedrie 7y ago

> Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. And most cities are worlds better to live in than they were in the 1980s. Why would you want to go back?

CPLX 7y ago

When people write responses like this I wonder if they’ve ever been to New York City. We don’t really have comparable problems. For me visiting LA, SF or Seattle is jaw dropping. I totally reject this idea that these situations are just inevitable.

chrisrogers 7y ago
Or Tokyo, for that matter. That's about as urban as you can get on Earth, with none of the 'grittiness' that so many West coast city-dwellers seem to think is inherent to cities. And in a comparable democracy, no less.
- shados 7y ago
  This is a pretty important point. Everything wrong with big American cities is normalized. If you don't like it, you're told to just go to the suburb. But it's all solvable and are usually consequences of policies as well as cultural problems. Many cities in the world just don't have these problems.
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    Suburbs are how America does segregation and separate but equal legally. We have “cities” next to major urban centers that can keep all their taxes dollars locally and shift their problems to urban centers. If you live in a nice neighborhood in the city of Seattle a good chunk of your money goes to fund poor parts of town and the homeless industry. Half a mile away the neighboring town keeps all its money for the local school and sends its homeless people to Seattle.
fzeroracer 7y ago
That's just objectively wrong. NYC has a higher homeless population both in sheer volume and per 100,000 people. So what is NYC doing to stop the growth of their homeless population beyond making it out of sight and out of mind?
- deleted 7y ago

Gaelan 7y ago

Honest Q: how is crime rate measured? If police stopped enforcing laws against, say, shoplifting, and the rate of shoplifting did not change, would the crime rate go down?

munificent 7y ago
Yes, most crime rate statistics are based on reported crimes. This is particularly problematic in Seattle. Because many citizens now understand that police won't respond to minor crimes, especially property crimes, people just don't report them at all. In the past few years, I've personally experienced someone climbing a fence to enter my back yard, shitting in my alley, stealing property from my porch, pissing on my garage, stealing from my trash (multiple times). None of those will show up on crime statistics even though they are illegal because I didn't call in since I knew the cops didn't have the capacity to do anything.
rdtwo 7y ago
Yeah since drug use is no longer a crime and since possession is legal the number of crimes is down. We could decrease the numbers even more if we fired the remaining police officers.

mehrdadn 7y ago

> Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. Someone else says the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20780632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20780632 Not sure which one is correct...

thomasmeeks 7y ago
It is down: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/is-seattle-dying-not-if-you-look-crime-rates-from-the-80s-and-90s/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/is-seattle-dy...
Fellshard 7y ago
When I see conflicting stories like that, especially regarding a topic like this, I'd immediately check the definitions each party is using.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Yeah, that's why I commented. So they could resolve explain what they meant and hopefully resolve the discrepancy.

m0zg 7y ago

>> has been steadily declining since the 1980s And it'll "decline" further after this now that petty theft and shooting heroin in full view of the public is not a crime. Abolish all laws and it'll go down to zero, woo-hoo! I fear that the secondary effect of this will be to attract even more homeless heroin addicts from places where these things are still crimes.