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> In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs. It is relying less on the criminal justice toolbox to deal with hard drugs and more on the public

> In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs. It is relying less on the criminal justice toolbox to deal with hard drugs and more on the public health toolbox. America's puritanical urges result in more self-harm than anything else. So much of the way our nation is structured is based on some ancient idea that you have to live clean and work hard in order to get to heaven. That is combined with a sense of justified sadism: if we catch someone not living up to these ideals, it is appropriate to punish them, and appropriate to take pleasure in punishing them. The War on Drugs was never about public health. It was about 1. controlling minorities, and 2. moral superiority. So there's absolutely no surprise that a health-based approach is showing better results than a punishment-based approach.

JamesSchriver 7y ago
That's rather condescending and ignorant. It has nothing to do with puritanical urges, it has to do with personal responsibility and everyone being responsible for their own actions, which results in having to suffer the personal consequences without having the right to impose oneself on others by one's own choices in life. Unfortunately, this whole drug situation in the USA has gotten, like many things, totally out of hand through gaslighting abusive actions by those who claim to want to "help" and make things better, but instead have nothing but a record and history of making things worse, which they immediately sweep under the rug the second even they can't ignore their constant, repeated, and typical failures. What this "caring" approach smells of to me is a kind of stasis, where the helper-syndrome types get to feel good about themselves, while getting rich as org directors, and also normalizing drug cartel operations. The Drug cartels and organized drug criminals are actually a real domestic terror and civil threat to society and communities as they kill and destroy lives by the hundreds of thousands and devastate lives by the millions every single year. I do agree that throwing users in prison is nonsense, even though often ( and I know people who can attest to this ) it is the thing that saves them from the drug and it also leads to users giving up people on the chain towards the sources of the chemical warfare that is waged on the American people. I also agree, this whole cottage industry of drug related careers and fortunes, whether it's NGOs or DEA, is an utter mess and corrupted. What really should be happening is that all drug producers, smugglers, transporters, and dealers be declared the perpetrators of crimes against humanity that they are and they should be treated like the enemies in war that they are, as they engage in chemical warfare that kills 80,000 people every year and destroys millions of lives and families and pillages billions and trillions of dollars. It should be a scorched earth tactic against smugglers, dealers, and producers ... a merciless, ruthless, hunt for these people that are then erased as the war criminals and pestilence on humanity they are ... the mass murderers they are. But that's from someone that actually hates the misery and suffering and death that drugs cause. I do not get the sense that most people actually care one iota about the 80,000 people that die every year, not to count the thousands who commit suicide due to addiction. All those who do not want to end it once and for all with direct, hard, and merciless action are complicit in and guilty of supporting the murders by the drug cartels and criminals against humanity.
- cat199 7y ago
  but then how would we back-channel support our preferred political factions in the drug producing countries??
  - cat199 7y ago
    oh hey.. here's mister anyonymous non-commented downvote again.. have 3 examples throughout modern history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaloa_Cartel#Allegations_of_collusion_with_the_US_federal_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaloa_Cartel#Allegations_of_...
- is_this_valid2 7y ago
  There's strict liability (without legal regulated supply we have essentially zero liability) and there's near-genocide. "Scorched Earth", "erased as the war criminals and pestilence on humanity they are", further abused, forced into same-sex incarcerated relationships. We've tried this. It hasn't solved yet. "Just kill them" for climbing without a rope? For risking their long-term health for short-term relief from physical and mental trauma and subsequent addiction, for not violating anyone else's rights but their own, you think you have the right (and moral obligation!) to violate their rights? Because they're inferior. They're an eyesore. "Eliminate the weak!" (who aren't violating the rights of others). Can you think of groups of people in human history who have taken that approach, violated the rights of others, and been cured by subsequent prison? With the savings from not paying $50,000 a year for learn-to-silently-move-tax-free-contraband-in-cool-school incarceration and attempted concurrent rehabilitation (while the right to address personal health matters is denied), there should be plenty of money to prosecute property crime and littering and biohazards. Let me just reward you with food, a place to stay, gangs, and zero need for personal financial responsibility. You litter in the street, the park, an alleyway, where f'ing kids play, you spend some of your time cleaning that s' up. For free. Because that's violating the rights of other people.
- thomascgalvin 7y ago
cat199 7y ago
.. and so further, the pre-determined dualism argues, if you aren't up to being 'perfect', you obvously must be a 'bad person', creating an internal self-shame which can't easily be dealt with, other than conforming to the 'bad' archetype..
drcode 7y ago
If you think there is more drug-related crime and public heroin injections in "puritan" US cities like Seattle vs European cities like Frankfurt or Amsterdam... you must not travel very much.
- redisman 7y ago
  What are the Pioneer Square and "3rd and pike" of Frankfurt or Amsterdam?
  - timdev2 7y ago
    Anecdotally, I observed daytime public intravenous drug use within my first 3 hours on the ground in Frankfurt a few years ago. I don't know exactly where, but it was within walking radius of the main train station. I think it was in/adjacent to some kind of red-light district.
- thomascgalvin 7y ago
  You understand that the whole point of this article is that Seattle is turning away from the traditional view of drug use - a moral failing that needs to be punished - and toward a more modern view - a medical condition that needs treatment - right? Punishment of drug use does nothing to prevent drug use. Its only value, therefore, is sadism.
  - drcode 7y ago
    I wasn't replying to the article, I was responding to your claim that this change (as already exists in non-US cities) would lead to better results. I support decriminalization on purely moral grounds, but am skeptical this will lead to less (and not more) drug-related crime or public use of hard drugs, based on my anecdotal observations in Europe.
sukilot 7y ago
The War of Drugs, like most things, is abused by the rich and powerful. But would you seriously look a Black mother or father in their face and tell her that her child is dead (and they are broke) because he freed himself from the oppressive Puritanical culture and enjoyed drugging himself to death and stealing their resources to feed his addiction?
- thomascgalvin 7y ago
  My point is that those puritanical beliefs create grieving parents, because we seek to punish addicts instead of treating them. America sees addiction as a moral failing which can be flagellated away, not as a medical condition requiring treatment.

JamesSchriver 7y ago

That's rather condescending and ignorant. It has nothing to do with puritanical urges, it has to do with personal responsibility and everyone being responsible for their own actions, which results in having to suffer the personal consequences without having the right to impose oneself on others by one's own choices in life. Unfortunately, this whole drug situation in the USA has gotten, like many things, totally out of hand through gaslighting abusive actions by those who claim to want to "help" and make things better, but instead have nothing but a record and history of making things worse, which they immediately sweep under the rug the second even they can't ignore their constant, repeated, and typical failures. What this "caring" approach smells of to me is a kind of stasis, where the helper-syndrome types get to feel good about themselves, while getting rich as org directors, and also normalizing drug cartel operations. The Drug cartels and organized drug criminals are actually a real domestic terror and civil threat to society and communities as they kill and destroy lives by the hundreds of thousands and devastate lives by the millions every single year. I do agree that throwing users in prison is nonsense, even though often ( and I know people who can attest to this ) it is the thing that saves them from the drug and it also leads to users giving up people on the chain towards the sources of the chemical warfare that is waged on the American people. I also agree, this whole cottage industry of drug related careers and fortunes, whether it's NGOs or DEA, is an utter mess and corrupted. What really should be happening is that all drug producers, smugglers, transporters, and dealers be declared the perpetrators of crimes against humanity that they are and they should be treated like the enemies in war that they are, as they engage in chemical warfare that kills 80,000 people every year and destroys millions of lives and families and pillages billions and trillions of dollars. It should be a scorched earth tactic against smugglers, dealers, and producers ... a merciless, ruthless, hunt for these people that are then erased as the war criminals and pestilence on humanity they are ... the mass murderers they are. But that's from someone that actually hates the misery and suffering and death that drugs cause. I do not get the sense that most people actually care one iota about the 80,000 people that die every year, not to count the thousands who commit suicide due to addiction. All those who do not want to end it once and for all with direct, hard, and merciless action are complicit in and guilty of supporting the murders by the drug cartels and criminals against humanity.

cat199 7y ago
but then how would we back-channel support our preferred political factions in the drug producing countries??
- cat199 7y ago
  oh hey.. here's mister anyonymous non-commented downvote again.. have 3 examples throughout modern history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaloa_Cartel#Allegations_of_collusion_with_the_US_federal_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaloa_Cartel#Allegations_of_...
is_this_valid2 7y ago
There's strict liability (without legal regulated supply we have essentially zero liability) and there's near-genocide. "Scorched Earth", "erased as the war criminals and pestilence on humanity they are", further abused, forced into same-sex incarcerated relationships. We've tried this. It hasn't solved yet. "Just kill them" for climbing without a rope? For risking their long-term health for short-term relief from physical and mental trauma and subsequent addiction, for not violating anyone else's rights but their own, you think you have the right (and moral obligation!) to violate their rights? Because they're inferior. They're an eyesore. "Eliminate the weak!" (who aren't violating the rights of others). Can you think of groups of people in human history who have taken that approach, violated the rights of others, and been cured by subsequent prison? With the savings from not paying $50,000 a year for learn-to-silently-move-tax-free-contraband-in-cool-school incarceration and attempted concurrent rehabilitation (while the right to address personal health matters is denied), there should be plenty of money to prosecute property crime and littering and biohazards. Let me just reward you with food, a place to stay, gangs, and zero need for personal financial responsibility. You litter in the street, the park, an alleyway, where f'ing kids play, you spend some of your time cleaning that s' up. For free. Because that's violating the rights of other people.
thomascgalvin 7y ago

cat199 7y ago

.. and so further, the pre-determined dualism argues, if you aren't up to being 'perfect', you obvously must be a 'bad person', creating an internal self-shame which can't easily be dealt with, other than conforming to the 'bad' archetype..

drcode 7y ago

If you think there is more drug-related crime and public heroin injections in "puritan" US cities like Seattle vs European cities like Frankfurt or Amsterdam... you must not travel very much.

redisman 7y ago
What are the Pioneer Square and "3rd and pike" of Frankfurt or Amsterdam?
- timdev2 7y ago
  Anecdotally, I observed daytime public intravenous drug use within my first 3 hours on the ground in Frankfurt a few years ago. I don't know exactly where, but it was within walking radius of the main train station. I think it was in/adjacent to some kind of red-light district.
thomascgalvin 7y ago
You understand that the whole point of this article is that Seattle is turning away from the traditional view of drug use - a moral failing that needs to be punished - and toward a more modern view - a medical condition that needs treatment - right? Punishment of drug use does nothing to prevent drug use. Its only value, therefore, is sadism.
- drcode 7y ago
  I wasn't replying to the article, I was responding to your claim that this change (as already exists in non-US cities) would lead to better results. I support decriminalization on purely moral grounds, but am skeptical this will lead to less (and not more) drug-related crime or public use of hard drugs, based on my anecdotal observations in Europe.

sukilot 7y ago

The War of Drugs, like most things, is abused by the rich and powerful. But would you seriously look a Black mother or father in their face and tell her that her child is dead (and they are broke) because he freed himself from the oppressive Puritanical culture and enjoyed drugging himself to death and stealing their resources to feed his addiction?

thomascgalvin 7y ago
My point is that those puritanical beliefs create grieving parents, because we seek to punish addicts instead of treating them. America sees addiction as a moral failing which can be flagellated away, not as a medical condition requiring treatment.