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I have said it before but all of this is pretty classic fascist behavior where loyalty to the corporate state is demanded without question. This is for all serv

I have said it before but all of this is pretty classic fascist behavior where loyalty to the corporate state is demanded without question. This is for all serving purposes a monster that the West created. I just worry about what this looks like going forward, where we have this huge massive superpower which acts this way and can't be questioned.

erikpukinskis 7y ago
No disagreements with your base assessment, but how did the west create this situation? China has a longer continuous timeline than the western powers by far. Are the current political moires there not another node on that chain?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Valuing trade with China over human rights. Trade that enabled China’s superpower status. Taming the monster will be...tricky. You either have enough leverage that Beijing backs down (China is in a very precarious economic condition at the moment, don’t let it go to waste; prevent further rise in power long enough for their demographic transition to complete), or you support internal revolutionaries (which the US has done enough previously in its history I don’t need to detail here). Anything else will be outright world war (probably starting near HK, perhaps with the destruction of the bridge connecting it to the mainland to stave off a ground invasion).
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  I won't say "the west" because I think it's really "capitalism", but Global capitalism created this situation by deepening trade relationships with China to the point that we're all dependent on them to the point that there's very little leverage over their international behaviour. Look at how the PRC is behaving against Canada right now. Illegal torture-like detention of two of innocent Canadian citizens in China, in retaliation for the very mild house arrest (for extradition) of a Huawei executive, something Canada _had_ to do (treaty) on US request. How they behave domestically (against Hong Kong citizens for example), yes, that's another question.
  - Varcht 7y ago
    I think there was some hope that capitalism would bring about democracy. It hasn't quite worked out (yet?).
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      Why would you think that an economic system based on minority control over (often formerly public) resources would bring about a political system based on majority entitlement?
      - Varcht 7y ago
        Somehow, comrade porcupine, I feel we could save some time if we just agree to disagree. https://qz.com/1691785/chinas-paying-to-build-its-influence-on-foreign-social-media/ https://qz.com/1691785/chinas-paying-to-build-its-influence-...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - eli_gottlieb 7y ago
    That is absolute bullshit. If Western countries had refused to trade with China for human-rights reasons, we'd be hearing accusations of economic imperialism! Now we're responsible for their ultra-nationalist authoritarian capitalism because we don't impose our imperial authority on them?
    - devoply 7y ago
      See anyone saying anything against Western countries for not trading with Iran, Venezuela, or North Korea?
      - notyourday 7y ago
        It is a rather popular position among the American left, especially the one represented by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and AOC.
- Varcht 7y ago
  This type of argument always kind of bothers me as well, be nice to state it as "helped create" or something but then there is a lot to say for the old saying "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem".
  - devoply 7y ago
    Without the West's various investments and opening of trade partnerships and eventually ushering China into the WTO, China would be in nowhere near the position that it is in today.
    - Varcht 7y ago
      No argument on that. I just don't quite believe that the "west created it", I guess it's possible that it was willful and meant to prove the communist utopian ideal...
- wbl 7y ago
  1911 was not that long ago, not was 1638. Going beyond that is dubious. It's like if Italy claimed to be 2,839 years old because of Rome or the modern Turkish state claiming continuity with Byzantium.
chapium 7y ago
China created China. The west is an influencer but to say it drives the direction of that country is misplaced and not accounting for how much power china has domestically.
- wahern 7y ago
  China is perhaps the only other country in the world as impervious to foreign influence as the U.S.; and with citizens as oblivious to the outside world. Of course, neither are completely impervious. And the citizens aren't completely oblivious. But from everything I've read about China and the Chinese, including little things like how Chinese tourists and visitors behave in foreign countries, the similarities are striking. And of course they have an obvious common source--both countries don't really need to care much about the outside world because of their size and power, and culturally they were historically inward looking even before they rose to global powers.
  - dade_ 7y ago
    Thr CCP owes a lot to Americans, especially Roosevelt. Misguided optimism really.
dade_ 7y ago
Actually it was Japan's invaaion of China that depleated the Guomindang national government aka Republic of China (now only rules Taiwan) resulting in their defeat in the civil war war with the CCP (Mao). Also why there is a serious hate on for each other and why Taiwan is cheering on the HK protests.

erikpukinskis 7y ago

No disagreements with your base assessment, but how did the west create this situation? China has a longer continuous timeline than the western powers by far. Are the current political moires there not another node on that chain?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Valuing trade with China over human rights. Trade that enabled China’s superpower status. Taming the monster will be...tricky. You either have enough leverage that Beijing backs down (China is in a very precarious economic condition at the moment, don’t let it go to waste; prevent further rise in power long enough for their demographic transition to complete), or you support internal revolutionaries (which the US has done enough previously in its history I don’t need to detail here). Anything else will be outright world war (probably starting near HK, perhaps with the destruction of the bridge connecting it to the mainland to stave off a ground invasion).
cmrdporcupine 7y ago
I won't say "the west" because I think it's really "capitalism", but Global capitalism created this situation by deepening trade relationships with China to the point that we're all dependent on them to the point that there's very little leverage over their international behaviour. Look at how the PRC is behaving against Canada right now. Illegal torture-like detention of two of innocent Canadian citizens in China, in retaliation for the very mild house arrest (for extradition) of a Huawei executive, something Canada _had_ to do (treaty) on US request. How they behave domestically (against Hong Kong citizens for example), yes, that's another question.
- Varcht 7y ago
  I think there was some hope that capitalism would bring about democracy. It hasn't quite worked out (yet?).
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Why would you think that an economic system based on minority control over (often formerly public) resources would bring about a political system based on majority entitlement?
    - Varcht 7y ago
      Somehow, comrade porcupine, I feel we could save some time if we just agree to disagree. https://qz.com/1691785/chinas-paying-to-build-its-influence-on-foreign-social-media/ https://qz.com/1691785/chinas-paying-to-build-its-influence-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- eli_gottlieb 7y ago
  That is absolute bullshit. If Western countries had refused to trade with China for human-rights reasons, we'd be hearing accusations of economic imperialism! Now we're responsible for their ultra-nationalist authoritarian capitalism because we don't impose our imperial authority on them?
  - devoply 7y ago
    See anyone saying anything against Western countries for not trading with Iran, Venezuela, or North Korea?
    - notyourday 7y ago
      It is a rather popular position among the American left, especially the one represented by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and AOC.
Varcht 7y ago
This type of argument always kind of bothers me as well, be nice to state it as "helped create" or something but then there is a lot to say for the old saying "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem".
- devoply 7y ago
  Without the West's various investments and opening of trade partnerships and eventually ushering China into the WTO, China would be in nowhere near the position that it is in today.
  - Varcht 7y ago
    No argument on that. I just don't quite believe that the "west created it", I guess it's possible that it was willful and meant to prove the communist utopian ideal...
wbl 7y ago
1911 was not that long ago, not was 1638. Going beyond that is dubious. It's like if Italy claimed to be 2,839 years old because of Rome or the modern Turkish state claiming continuity with Byzantium.

chapium 7y ago

China created China. The west is an influencer but to say it drives the direction of that country is misplaced and not accounting for how much power china has domestically.

wahern 7y ago
China is perhaps the only other country in the world as impervious to foreign influence as the U.S.; and with citizens as oblivious to the outside world. Of course, neither are completely impervious. And the citizens aren't completely oblivious. But from everything I've read about China and the Chinese, including little things like how Chinese tourists and visitors behave in foreign countries, the similarities are striking. And of course they have an obvious common source--both countries don't really need to care much about the outside world because of their size and power, and culturally they were historically inward looking even before they rose to global powers.
- dade_ 7y ago
  Thr CCP owes a lot to Americans, especially Roosevelt. Misguided optimism really.

dade_ 7y ago

Actually it was Japan's invaaion of China that depleated the Guomindang national government aka Republic of China (now only rules Taiwan) resulting in their defeat in the civil war war with the CCP (Mao). Also why there is a serious hate on for each other and why Taiwan is cheering on the HK protests.