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Every "wallet voter" is in a kind of "prisoner's dilemma" with each other where it won't do anything if they stop unless everyone else stops too. But if everyon

Every "wallet voter" is in a kind of "prisoner's dilemma" with each other where it won't do anything if they stop unless everyone else stops too. But if everyone else stops then they can continue. Everoyne is aiming to be the one who can continue while everyone else stops thus nothing happens. Every collective downside of any consumption (and because of requirements for infinite growth there is always collective downside no matter what) will always go away if someone is the only one doing it. So you cannot see or understand the system by looking at an individual. System that divides people into making rational individual decisions (called free market economy) without any real way to conspire co-operation is always going to result in something that is irrational for everyone as a whole. Everyone has to "defect" and for every person you convince against their self-interest to "co-operate" there will be 10 more "defecting". If you want best possible overall result you need entirely different system like centrally planned economy which for example walmart and amazon already uses. If you attempt to fix the system instead changing it entirely you will just end up making it worse because of regulatory capture. The fault I described cannot be fixed because it would be contradictory to the very foundation, so instead of actually fixing anything it will make the system even more unfair and perverted.

tempguy9999 7y ago
Not everyone defects, and your conclusion that "regulatory capture" is inevitable, and that us little people can do nothing, is toxic. Both are wrong. I've spent years of my life trying to change things but it is defeatists like you that are part of the problem - spreading "we're fucked anyway" memes is corrosive because it induces the exact attitude and behaviour you say will happen. Let me be clear, if the world dies we die with it and you die too - got it? So please get off your butt, stop trying to look so worldly-wise, and do something. I know, I know, it takes more effort than posting on HN. Tricky, that.
- esailija 7y ago
  > Not everyone defects I don't think I said so. In fact I am vegan myself. I said for everyone that co-operates 10 more will defect, which is true in sentiment because meat consumption keeps rising. > we're fucked anyway Well more specifically either capitalism ends or the world ends.
  - dgellow 7y ago
    > Well more specifically either capitalism ends or the world ends. Let's say capitalism ends right now without destabilizing the entire world (so no post apocalyptic scenario where only a few million survive). What would be a system that doesn't result in the "world as we know it" ending in the coming centuries? You would still have to deal with the current state of the environment and the current population. People will still be the same persons they are now, who wants to eat meat, over-consume, close their eyes when an issue doesn't concern them directly. Or do you see it in a different way?
    - esailija 7y ago
      > What would be a system that doesn't result in the "world as we know it" ending in the coming centuries? Well like I said in my OP you'd need to have economy entirely based on planning around needs and environment as opposed to private profits. > People will still be the same persons they are now, who wants to eat meat, over-consume, close their eyes when an issue doesn't concern them directly. Or do you see it in a different way? It's hard to tell what people are "naturally" when they are forced to live under a system that requires those traits in order to function and perpetuate itself. If you remove overconsumption and individualism a capitalist economy will collapse, then it is most likely not a coincidence that people are like that in a capitalist economy and not their "true" nature. If the system is even going to be changed it's going to be because critical mass of people have recognized the need to change it (not suddenly overnight) which implies they are no longer indoctrinated to overconsume and see the world in individualistic way and have assumed other ideologies that are needed to support and perpetuate the new system.
wsxcde 7y ago
That's why I said you need to get laws passed making beef consumption extremely expensive. Individual acts of voting with your wallet are unlikely to succeed.

tempguy9999 7y ago

Not everyone defects, and your conclusion that "regulatory capture" is inevitable, and that us little people can do nothing, is toxic. Both are wrong. I've spent years of my life trying to change things but it is defeatists like you that are part of the problem - spreading "we're fucked anyway" memes is corrosive because it induces the exact attitude and behaviour you say will happen. Let me be clear, if the world dies we die with it and you die too - got it? So please get off your butt, stop trying to look so worldly-wise, and do something. I know, I know, it takes more effort than posting on HN. Tricky, that.

esailija 7y ago
> Not everyone defects I don't think I said so. In fact I am vegan myself. I said for everyone that co-operates 10 more will defect, which is true in sentiment because meat consumption keeps rising. > we're fucked anyway Well more specifically either capitalism ends or the world ends.
- dgellow 7y ago
  > Well more specifically either capitalism ends or the world ends. Let's say capitalism ends right now without destabilizing the entire world (so no post apocalyptic scenario where only a few million survive). What would be a system that doesn't result in the "world as we know it" ending in the coming centuries? You would still have to deal with the current state of the environment and the current population. People will still be the same persons they are now, who wants to eat meat, over-consume, close their eyes when an issue doesn't concern them directly. Or do you see it in a different way?
  - esailija 7y ago
    > What would be a system that doesn't result in the "world as we know it" ending in the coming centuries? Well like I said in my OP you'd need to have economy entirely based on planning around needs and environment as opposed to private profits. > People will still be the same persons they are now, who wants to eat meat, over-consume, close their eyes when an issue doesn't concern them directly. Or do you see it in a different way? It's hard to tell what people are "naturally" when they are forced to live under a system that requires those traits in order to function and perpetuate itself. If you remove overconsumption and individualism a capitalist economy will collapse, then it is most likely not a coincidence that people are like that in a capitalist economy and not their "true" nature. If the system is even going to be changed it's going to be because critical mass of people have recognized the need to change it (not suddenly overnight) which implies they are no longer indoctrinated to overconsume and see the world in individualistic way and have assumed other ideologies that are needed to support and perpetuate the new system.

wsxcde 7y ago

That's why I said you need to get laws passed making beef consumption extremely expensive. Individual acts of voting with your wallet are unlikely to succeed.