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And where do those countries and the west get their soy? The top export of Brasil are soy beans (for cattle feed), it's a 26 billion market - https://oec.world/

by vfc1 7y ago

And where do those countries and the west get their soy? The top export of Brasil are soy beans (for cattle feed), it's a 26 billion market - https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20top%20exports%20of%20Brazil,HS%20(Harmonized%20System)%20classification https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20t....

f00zz 7y ago
US is the largest soybean producer in the world
- vfc1 7y ago
  The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-rides-wave-of-soybean-sales-to-china-as-u-s-trade-war-rages-idUSKCN1SN1Z7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ Which is insane if you ask me, a horrendous waste of resources.
  - kmonsen 7y ago
    Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?
    - vfc1 7y ago
      I'm saying that global demand for cheap meat (lead by both China and the west) is the actual cause for the ongoing deforestation, as the forest is being cleared to produce cattle feed. And this is something hardly mentioned in the news at all, by whatever reason. The trade wars with China have made things a bit worst recently, as there is more demand for brasilian soy. The main responsibility for me lies with the consumers of the final product (meat), because they are driving the demand. But OK it's not just the west after all, it's mostly the west and China, but really any nation that is importing cattle feed from Brasil is sponsoring the deforestation, it's a global thing.
      - endorphone 7y ago
        It isn't the West at all beyond the most marginal of imports to a small number of EU countries. That you are trying to eek out some sort of completely convoluted way that your incorrect claim was right is becoming some serious mental gymnastics. The West likes beef. The West overwhelmingly makes and feeds internally, having nothing to do with the Amazon rainforests. Will you now argue that the West is to blame because it doesn't make enough for itself and China? If you argued that palm oil production was a factor you'd have some basis, but you are entirely and completely off base with these claims about beef.
        vfc1 7y ago
        You know well that there are a lot more crops other than soy being planted, it's obviously much more complicated than that. Do you have any doubt that a lot of the products produced directly or indirectly as a result of the deforestation are being sold mostly to the richest countries in the world that can afford it?
  - jfindley 7y ago
    Hmm, as I understand it, the US/China trade war you're referring to has been going on for about a year, total[0]. Looking at the graph for soybean production in Brazil, the increase in the past year has been pretty small and actually appears to be a slight slowing of the growth curve[1], even if the export curve looks rather different. I guess you could make an argument that the trade war has driven the increased deforestation over the past 12 months, but you could just as easily blame any number of other factors, notably including Brazil's current president who has rolled back a number of important environmental protections. Not every problem needs to be exclusively the fault of the west - it's okay for other people to do things wrong as well. 0: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exports/us-official-says-china-far-short-of-soybean-purchase-pledge-after-small-sale-idUSKCN1VC1S9 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exports/u... 1: https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/articles/in-race-for-china-brazil-eyes-record-soybean-crop https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/articles/in-race-for-c...
thermoskafander 7y ago
it's right there in your link (to China) - https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show/1201/2017/ https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show...
parsnips 7y ago
The US is a net exporter of soy as well.
endorphone 7y ago
Since you've edited your comment to now be about soy, the US and Canada are both entirely self-sufficient with soy and are major exporters. The EU does import soy from Brazil but it is a tiny consumer (and dropping) relative to China. Again, not the West. What's next? Adam Smith and the creation of capitalism?
- vfc1 7y ago
  Answered above in another comment, AFIK the Amazon is being torn down mostly for cattle feed crops, soy and others. A lot of the soy is exported all over the world, to china due to the trade wars with the US, to western countries which need cattle feed but don't have the land to produce those crops. Developing nations have limited meat consumption still, the biggest consumers of meat is the west in general. The cattle feed needs to come from somewhere, a lot of it comes from the Amazon.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    That doesn't answer anything. Brazil's meat and soy exports are overwhelmingly to destinations that are not the West. China did indeed shift a lot of consumption from Canada and the US towards Brazil. That's not Canada and the US' fault, and is 100% the actions and malice of China in trying to be punitive.
    - vfc1 7y ago
      One thing's for sure, the forest is being taken down to produce cattle feed, with the final goal to produce cheap meat. The biggest consumers are the West and China, so following the money I think those are the main responsible because it's their demand for the final product that is ultimately the economic reason behind the deforestation. So indeed I underestimated the role of China in this process, has I thought historically the biggest consumers of meat have been the west. The trade wars with China have recently increased the demand for brasilian soy, adding fuel to the fire so to speak.
jfindley 7y ago
Again, the US is a significant exporter of soy beans, and most of the rest of the west consume fairly little. China is by far the largest importer of soy beans, importing about 30x[0] more than the next largest. Aside from the US and Canada, many western countries are net importers of soy beans, but not in anything like enough quantities to demand anything like the vast amounts Brazil exports. 0: https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/ https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
xienze 7y ago
From your link: >The top exporters of Soybeans are Brazil ($25.9B), the United States ($22B), Argentina ($2.82B), Paraguay ($2.19B) and Canada ($1.91B). The top importers are China ($36.6B), Mexico ($1.72B), the Netherlands ($1.6B), Japan ($1.41B) and Spain ($1.31B). It would appear China is the one with the insatiable appetite for soy, not the US and Canada.

by vfc1 7y ago

f00zz 7y ago

US is the largest soybean producer in the world

vfc1 7y ago
The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-rides-wave-of-soybean-sales-to-china-as-u-s-trade-war-rages-idUSKCN1SN1Z7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ Which is insane if you ask me, a horrendous waste of resources.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?
  - vfc1 7y ago
    I'm saying that global demand for cheap meat (lead by both China and the west) is the actual cause for the ongoing deforestation, as the forest is being cleared to produce cattle feed. And this is something hardly mentioned in the news at all, by whatever reason. The trade wars with China have made things a bit worst recently, as there is more demand for brasilian soy. The main responsibility for me lies with the consumers of the final product (meat), because they are driving the demand. But OK it's not just the west after all, it's mostly the west and China, but really any nation that is importing cattle feed from Brasil is sponsoring the deforestation, it's a global thing.
    - endorphone 7y ago
      It isn't the West at all beyond the most marginal of imports to a small number of EU countries. That you are trying to eek out some sort of completely convoluted way that your incorrect claim was right is becoming some serious mental gymnastics. The West likes beef. The West overwhelmingly makes and feeds internally, having nothing to do with the Amazon rainforests. Will you now argue that the West is to blame because it doesn't make enough for itself and China? If you argued that palm oil production was a factor you'd have some basis, but you are entirely and completely off base with these claims about beef.
      - vfc1 7y ago
        You know well that there are a lot more crops other than soy being planted, it's obviously much more complicated than that. Do you have any doubt that a lot of the products produced directly or indirectly as a result of the deforestation are being sold mostly to the richest countries in the world that can afford it?
- jfindley 7y ago
  Hmm, as I understand it, the US/China trade war you're referring to has been going on for about a year, total[0]. Looking at the graph for soybean production in Brazil, the increase in the past year has been pretty small and actually appears to be a slight slowing of the growth curve[1], even if the export curve looks rather different. I guess you could make an argument that the trade war has driven the increased deforestation over the past 12 months, but you could just as easily blame any number of other factors, notably including Brazil's current president who has rolled back a number of important environmental protections. Not every problem needs to be exclusively the fault of the west - it's okay for other people to do things wrong as well. 0: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exports/us-official-says-china-far-short-of-soybean-purchase-pledge-after-small-sale-idUSKCN1VC1S9 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exports/u... 1: https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/articles/in-race-for-china-brazil-eyes-record-soybean-crop https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/articles/in-race-for-c...

thermoskafander 7y ago

it's right there in your link (to China) - https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show/1201/2017/ https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show...

parsnips 7y ago

The US is a net exporter of soy as well.

endorphone 7y ago

Since you've edited your comment to now be about soy, the US and Canada are both entirely self-sufficient with soy and are major exporters. The EU does import soy from Brazil but it is a tiny consumer (and dropping) relative to China. Again, not the West. What's next? Adam Smith and the creation of capitalism?

vfc1 7y ago
Answered above in another comment, AFIK the Amazon is being torn down mostly for cattle feed crops, soy and others. A lot of the soy is exported all over the world, to china due to the trade wars with the US, to western countries which need cattle feed but don't have the land to produce those crops. Developing nations have limited meat consumption still, the biggest consumers of meat is the west in general. The cattle feed needs to come from somewhere, a lot of it comes from the Amazon.
- endorphone 7y ago
  That doesn't answer anything. Brazil's meat and soy exports are overwhelmingly to destinations that are not the West. China did indeed shift a lot of consumption from Canada and the US towards Brazil. That's not Canada and the US' fault, and is 100% the actions and malice of China in trying to be punitive.
  - vfc1 7y ago
    One thing's for sure, the forest is being taken down to produce cattle feed, with the final goal to produce cheap meat. The biggest consumers are the West and China, so following the money I think those are the main responsible because it's their demand for the final product that is ultimately the economic reason behind the deforestation. So indeed I underestimated the role of China in this process, has I thought historically the biggest consumers of meat have been the west. The trade wars with China have recently increased the demand for brasilian soy, adding fuel to the fire so to speak.

jfindley 7y ago

Again, the US is a significant exporter of soy beans, and most of the rest of the west consume fairly little. China is by far the largest importer of soy beans, importing about 30x[0] more than the next largest. Aside from the US and Canada, many western countries are net importers of soy beans, but not in anything like enough quantities to demand anything like the vast amounts Brazil exports. 0: https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/ https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

xienze 7y ago

From your link: >The top exporters of Soybeans are Brazil ($25.9B), the United States ($22B), Argentina ($2.82B), Paraguay ($2.19B) and Canada ($1.91B). The top importers are China ($36.6B), Mexico ($1.72B), the Netherlands ($1.6B), Japan ($1.41B) and Spain ($1.31B). It would appear China is the one with the insatiable appetite for soy, not the US and Canada.