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The main responsibility of the Amazon fires lies in the west. The Amazon is on fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat for western countries.

• endorphone 7y ago
  "The Amazon is on fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat for western countries." The largest markets for Brazil beef are, in order, Hong Kong, China, Russia, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Chile, and Venezuela. I don't think this qualifies as "Western Countries". A very small amount, relative to those consumers, goes to the EU. Close to none goes to the United States or Canada -- a minuscule novelty amount -- both of which are entirely self sufficient with beef, poultry, etc, and are net exporters. There is a point where "blame the West" just isn't constructive as a go to.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    And where do those countries and the west get their soy? The top export of Brasil are soy beans (for cattle feed), it's a 26 billion market - https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20top%20exports%20of%20Brazil,HS%20(Harmonized%20System)%20classification https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20t....
    • f00zz 7y ago
      US is the largest soybean producer in the world
      • vfc1 7y ago
        The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-rides-wave-of-soybean-sales-to-china-as-u-s-trade-war-rages-idUSKCN1SN1Z7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ Which is insane if you ask me, a horrendous waste of resources.
        • kmonsen 7y ago
          Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?
          • vfc1 7y ago
            I'm saying that global demand for cheap meat (lead by both China and the west) is the actual cause for the ongoing deforestation, as the forest is being cleared to produce cattle feed. And this is something hardly mentioned in the news at all, by whatever reason. The trade wars with China have made things a bit worst recently, as there is more demand for brasilian soy. The main responsibility for me lies with the consumers of the final product (meat), because they are driving the demand. But OK it's not just the west after all, it's mostly the west and China, but really any nation that is importing cattle feed from Brasil is sponsoring the deforestation, it's a global thing.
            • endorphone 7y ago
              It isn't the West at all beyond the most marginal of imports to a small number of EU countries. That you are trying to eek out some sort of completely convoluted way that your incorrect claim was right is becoming some serious mental gymnastics. The West likes beef. The West overwhelmingly makes and feeds internally, having nothing to do with the Amazon rainforests. Will you now argue that the West is to blame because it doesn't make enough for itself and China? If you argued that palm oil production was a factor you'd have some basis, but you are entirely and completely off base with these claims about beef.
              • vfc1 7y ago
                You know well that there are a lot more crops other than soy being planted, it's obviously much more complicated than that. Do you have any doubt that a lot of the products produced directly or indirectly as a result of the deforestation are being sold mostly to the richest countries in the world that can afford it?
        • 7y ago
    • thermoskafander 7y ago
      it's right there in your link (to China) - https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show/1201/2017/ https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/bra/show...
    • parsnips 7y ago
      The US is a net exporter of soy as well.
    • endorphone 7y ago
      Since you've edited your comment to now be about soy, the US and Canada are both entirely self-sufficient with soy and are major exporters. The EU does import soy from Brazil but it is a tiny consumer (and dropping) relative to China. Again, not the West. What's next? Adam Smith and the creation of capitalism?
      • vfc1 7y ago
        Answered above in another comment, AFIK the Amazon is being torn down mostly for cattle feed crops, soy and others. A lot of the soy is exported all over the world, to china due to the trade wars with the US, to western countries which need cattle feed but don't have the land to produce those crops. Developing nations have limited meat consumption still, the biggest consumers of meat is the west in general. The cattle feed needs to come from somewhere, a lot of it comes from the Amazon.
        • endorphone 7y ago
          That doesn't answer anything. Brazil's meat and soy exports are overwhelmingly to destinations that are not the West. China did indeed shift a lot of consumption from Canada and the US towards Brazil. That's not Canada and the US' fault, and is 100% the actions and malice of China in trying to be punitive.
          • vfc1 7y ago
            One thing's for sure, the forest is being taken down to produce cattle feed, with the final goal to produce cheap meat. The biggest consumers are the West and China, so following the money I think those are the main responsible because it's their demand for the final product that is ultimately the economic reason behind the deforestation. So indeed I underestimated the role of China in this process, has I thought historically the biggest consumers of meat have been the west. The trade wars with China have recently increased the demand for brasilian soy, adding fuel to the fire so to speak.
    • jfindley 7y ago
      Again, the US is a significant exporter of soy beans, and most of the rest of the west consume fairly little. China is by far the largest importer of soy beans, importing about 30x[0] more than the next largest. Aside from the US and Canada, many western countries are net importers of soy beans, but not in anything like enough quantities to demand anything like the vast amounts Brazil exports. 0: https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/ https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/1201/
    • deleted 7y ago
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    • xienze 7y ago
      From your link: >The top exporters of Soybeans are Brazil ($25.9B), the United States ($22B), Argentina ($2.82B), Paraguay ($2.19B) and Canada ($1.91B). The top importers are China ($36.6B), Mexico ($1.72B), the Netherlands ($1.6B), Japan ($1.41B) and Spain ($1.31B). It would appear China is the one with the insatiable appetite for soy, not the US and Canada.
  • deleted 7y ago
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• jacknews 7y ago
  No, it's not, and I for one get fed up with this constant self-shaming, or "riich western country-shaming" attitude. The problem is the entire system. Of course there is demand, but there is also supply. Each side must maintain standards, rather than just choosing the cheapest options. And both sides must hold each other accountable. Consumers must verify that production is sustainable, etc, and suppliers must insist on prices that support that, and reject quick-money offers/undercutting-schemes that undermine standards. In this particulr instance, I think there is a case (even an imperative) for "the west" to try to impose eco-tarrifs or eco-certifications etc on Brazilian beef, in order to pressure for more sustainable production practices.
  • esailija 7y ago
    > Each side must maintain standards, rather than just choosing the cheapest options. People don't have infinite money. In fact 4.5 billion people don't make enough money not to be in qualitative extreme poverty[1] let alone enough money to be able to freely choose options that are not cheapest. Extremely small portion of total people have any actual freedom to choose options other than cheapest. > Consumers must verify that production is sustainable Such verification is impossible as it requires infinite time and perfect information. It is always cheaper and more profitable to lie about sustainability than to actually be sustainable. When one hole is fixed 10 more holes appear. 1. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-...
    • jacknews 7y ago
      By "consumers" I lean more toward "consuming countries". They should reject or penalize destructive products on behalf of individual consumers, just as they currently do for various product-safety standards. Perhaps in the same way as CITES for banning trading in endangered species, or the various timber certifications, which are certainly imperfect and "full of holes" but at least a start. I think tech could vastly improve systems of provenance. As I said, the system itself is at fault (as per your excellent link - thanks) - there will always be consumers wanting the cheapest price regardless, and suppliers willing to offer it, or even encouraging it (and certainly trying to hide the 'regardless' part of the equation). They must be stopped.
• erikw 7y ago
  Anyone familiar with a low carbon footprint meat brand or certification? Seems like an interesting market opportunity. I didn't find a source for child comment re "the West" not being a primary market for Brazilian beef exports, but it doesn't sound unreasonable. Nevertheless, my understanding is that the entire beef supply chain has a massive carbon footprint, and I would think that there is a market for upscale US-raised carbon neutral beef.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    Is that even actually possible, carbon-neutral beef? I mean the deforestation implied for producing the crops that yield cattle feed, plus the methane emissions produced by the animal during it's lifetime, not to mention the water consumption that both the animal and the crops take, plus the huge amounts of excrements involved.
• tannhaeuser 7y ago
  France and Ireland are on the brink to block ratification of the Mercosur free-trade treaties so there's that. I believe Germany (and Scandinavian countries eg. Norway has already cancelled paying into the Amazonas found, though not sure this is counter-productive) could be pressured by public opinion as well.
  • andrenth 7y ago
    They're threatening to block due to pressure from their own internal agro lobby, not some newfound uneasiness about the environment.