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I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage out of these arguments. Their ideas can have the force of fact, of truth itself. We find what we look for. Even the arguments we make to ourselves have their stakes and motivations. Mr. Zeller's written a great defense here of the futility of his own existence. He was apparently a smart guy; had I been there myself, I doubt I'd have been able to refute him. However, that he wins the argument doesn't mean that what he believes is true. It doesn't mean that he gets to have me respect his decision. This is a hard thing, and ever so important for people dealing with someone who is depressed to this degree. Depressed folks can be very sharp, so we shouldn't let this kind of logic take us in. There is something deep and fundamental about life or death that an argument cannot sway; if my friend just can't go on and I can't find a problem with their reasoning, that doesn't mean I have to respect their decision. I just haven't found why they are wrong yet.

philwelch 16y ago
There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.
- billjings 16y ago
  It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential. I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    From the sounds of it, this guy did not give up his life "easily". I consider it a testament to human self-preservation that he survived this misery for so long.
  - davorak 16y ago
    Reason and logic are not imperfect, only used imperfectly by flawed beings.
- sunir 16y ago
  People often get this backwards. Emotions are the lines and reason is the colour. It's very had to colour outside the lines. Most of the time the picture of our lives is drawn by our emotions.
dasil003 16y ago
Clearly from the letter your respecting his decision is of little consequence. He wrote the letter so that you might understand him, not so that you would approve. As for finding a reason where he is wrong, I'd say his dismissal of the counseling community was a bit swift because I know the difference between a good therapist and a bad therapist; but really that's beside the point. The bottom line isn't about the acceptance of some "objective" truth. The only thing that would have mattered is if you could have guaranteed to Bill that there was a way for him to fix the problem and feel better. If there wasn't a way, then it's cruel of you to think he should have forced himself to endure a tortured existence just because you have an axiomatic objection to suicide. The truth is no one can say for sure whether there was a better solution for Bill, but since he spent 23 years dealing with it and wrote a pretty compelling piece, I'm gonna take his word over yours.
- billjings 16y ago
  I'm not going to have an imaginary argument with a dead man here, nor do I mean to condemn him for what he did. I accept that it was a long, hard struggle, and that he lost. The only person who could have found a better solution was Mr. Zeller himself, and he has settled that question permanently.

philwelch 16y ago

There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.

billjings 16y ago
It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential. I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.
- philwelch 16y ago
  From the sounds of it, this guy did not give up his life "easily". I consider it a testament to human self-preservation that he survived this misery for so long.
- davorak 16y ago
  Reason and logic are not imperfect, only used imperfectly by flawed beings.
sunir 16y ago
People often get this backwards. Emotions are the lines and reason is the colour. It's very had to colour outside the lines. Most of the time the picture of our lives is drawn by our emotions.

dasil003 16y ago

Clearly from the letter your respecting his decision is of little consequence. He wrote the letter so that you might understand him, not so that you would approve. As for finding a reason where he is wrong, I'd say his dismissal of the counseling community was a bit swift because I know the difference between a good therapist and a bad therapist; but really that's beside the point. The bottom line isn't about the acceptance of some "objective" truth. The only thing that would have mattered is if you could have guaranteed to Bill that there was a way for him to fix the problem and feel better. If there wasn't a way, then it's cruel of you to think he should have forced himself to endure a tortured existence just because you have an axiomatic objection to suicide. The truth is no one can say for sure whether there was a better solution for Bill, but since he spent 23 years dealing with it and wrote a pretty compelling piece, I'm gonna take his word over yours.

billjings 16y ago
I'm not going to have an imaginary argument with a dead man here, nor do I mean to condemn him for what he did. I accept that it was a long, hard struggle, and that he lost. The only person who could have found a better solution was Mr. Zeller himself, and he has settled that question permanently.