6 ms·
The usual point bears repeating: amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
by killjoywashere 7y ago
The usual point bears repeating: amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
- dmoy 7y agoArt of War if I remember correctly from reading it years back is significantly about logistics. Like some of it is simple shit - don't march a billion li and then fight, instead let the enemy march, stretch their supplies and be exhausted, then dust them.
- jammygit 7y agoThe art of war does mention those things, but usually in the wider context of positioning and timing.
- themodelplumber 7y agoLogistics comes down to a set of psychologies which, unless you really have past (ideally successful) experience with them, can be downright boring. For example, dealing with cargo from dozens of ships being dumped on the shore of a given island (Falklands conflict). Whose is this pile, where is it going, how will it get there, when will it arrive, and oh by the way, it is needed yesterday, so the method must be fastest. Repeated hundreds of times. It's an important area of focus, but it requires, just like tactics, certain gifts which many neither possess nor appreciate. Also the US emerged from the 20th century as a logistics superstar, so there is a certain bias. This can negatively impact areas like innovation; logistics is not generally a friend to novelty.
- hodgesrm 7y ago> Also the US emerged from the 20th century as a logistics superstar, so there is a certain bias. This can negatively impact areas like innovation; logistics is not generally a friend to novelty. John Churchill, aka Duke of Marlborough, was a master of logistics in when it was a rare skill. It was a key component in his many victories. [1] I'm sure there are counterexamples but good logistics underlay most of the great allied victories of WW II as well as the near German victory at the start of WW I. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Churchill,_1st_Duke_of_Marlborough#Assessment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Churchill,_1st_Duke_of_Ma...
- rangibaby 7y agoThe Axis' failure to supply their men adequately cost them at critical points during WWII, especially at Moscow and Stalingrad (loss of 500,000~1MM men)
- KineticLensman 7y agoAlso in North Africa, where the tactical expert Rommel repeatedly out-advanced his own supply chain allowing his over extended forces to be beaten back.
- perseusmandate 7y agoAnd outside of the context of the battles they were dependant on food and clothes they stole from civilians, which ended up killing millions
- jimmaswell 7y ago> This can negatively impact areas like innovation; logistics is not generally a friend to novelty. I don't see why not. Any advance in transportation or communication has an impact. If drones could deliver everything that would be major for example. And obviously gps, computer path/packing optimization, and warehouse automation have been big.
- iguy 7y agoAnd containers. "The Box" is a book which I'm sure has been a regular around here? https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10724.html https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10724.html
- themodelplumber 7y agoEven though it's still famously not cool to logisticians, who tend to have favorite desk calculators (as do I), novelty within logistics, I hope you can see, is quite different from novelty without. Novelty without logistics often appears as pure chaos to the logistician, because their entire order of things can be destroyed with the stroke of a pen. Also, imagine that your supreme leader is a logistician by psychology, and is presented with a choice: Cast the solution to the current problem as a logistics and force stabilization issue, or cast the solution as novel strategy. Human trait psychology shows us that they will tend to err on the side of logistics and sameness (sameness preserves logistics efficiency and is its friend). This gives their enemy the upper hand to the degree that the enemy can nurture broad and dynamic conflict while tricking the logistically-advanced side into wasting logistics resources and getting comfortable. The enemy ends up forcing short-lived novelty onto the logistical opponent in order to cause paralysis.
- mnky9800n 7y agoWhat's your favorite desk calculator. Mines the HP 48g
- killjoywashere 7y agoyes! I have two HP48G calculators. And still use them (and an emulator on my phone). I even have my laminated cribsheet of trig identities in the pocket. Two giants who came out of HP's calculator divsion: Woz and Jeff Hawkins. The internal programming language is a lisp, btw.
- mopsi 7y agoThe Falklands War offers an even better example of logistics than ships: Operation Black Buck extreme long-range air raids. 10+ aircraft took off and made a series of aerial refuelings to ensure that the last one of them was able to reach the target. The main aircraft had to be refueled no less than seven times on the outward journey and once on the return journey. The last tanker itself had to be refueled three times. Tanker plan: https://i.imgur.com/06n3jjb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/06n3jjb.jpg Backstory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
- NeedMoreTea 7y agoTook essentially all the Victor tanker fleet, of which some were air to air refuelled to allow Vulcan top ups far enough out. The VC10s were only months away from being ready as tankers. Two of the books cited in that Wikipedia article are well worth reading as a pair, as apart from both being very enjoyable, they offer opposing takes of the Vulcan raids: Sharkey Ward's Sea Harrier over the Falklands and Rowland White's Vulcan 607.
- themodelplumber 7y agoBlack Buck is a great example. The BBC radio drama version is really enjoyable too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqneOzclSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqneOzclSw
- shostack 7y agoI haven't had a chance to play more than an hour or so, but Foxhole is an interesting 3/4 perspective MMO war game where logistics plays a seemingly massive role. We're talking major player run supply chains including resource harvesting, transportation, refining, manufacturing, and ultimately getting it all to the front line. From what I've gathered of the community thus far, there's a sort of expectation that you do your time in "logi" and those who do are held in high regard.
- perseusmandate 7y agoThat sounds interesting but does it mean hours of doing a mundane grindy task like mining in EVE?
- secfirstmd 7y agoThe most realistic game available to the public right now is Arma 3. Which is is built on the same system as the military variant VBS3. We use VBS3 in the Irish Defence Forces (and I know many other militaries are using it also) and its capabilities are just incredible in terms of realism. It lets you build and run so many different scenarios and they have done a great job of getting minor details to work very well. It will never replace full live training but at the same time it lets you practice over and over again to maximise your time in the field (and also do things that costs, equipment etc would not allow for.)
- Der_Einzige 7y agoAnd yet Arma 3 is pathetically unrealistic. The fact that Picture-In-Picture scopes are so rare even within the game's assets shows a certain contempt for realism. I've never had to load bullets into my magazine one by one in Arma before. I've had to do that plenty of times in Escape from Tarkov. Red Orchestra also has more realistic scopes and gun mechanics.
- secfirstmd 7y agoOk so to clarify VBS3. The individual soldier stuff is so-so. There isn't much training benefit to a soldier from loading a virtual magazine. There is however when something like VBS3 allows them to practice being a JTAC over their lunch break. The really advanced bits are the range of equipment, combined operations and realistic scenarios you can create for it. Wanna recreate a local village, throw in realistic civilians and adversaries, match your convoy and run drills with multiple land, sea and air assets? No problem, easily done.
- na85 7y agoThat's catchy, but obviously professional soldiers, combat pilots, and naval sailors do in fact "talk tactics". Logistics is a vital component of modern military doctrine but it's still just a component.
- secfirstmd 7y agoTrue. At small unit level officers talk tactics and NCOs logistics :)
- tony 7y agohttps://youtu.be/wKi3NwLFkX4 https://youtu.be/wKi3NwLFkX4 - Gen. Schwarzkopf's Famed News Conference He doesn't get 5 minutes in without getting into logistics.
- goatinaboat 7y agoHis famous saying, logistics is not the army’s tail, but its spine.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- andrewflnr 7y agoOh, hush, let us amateurs have our fun.
- thesuperbigfrog 7y agoSustained warfare requires sustainment operations to keep the warfighters in business: Class 3 - fuel, petroleum, and lubricants Class 5 - ammunition Class 8 - medical supplies Class 9 - repair parts for equipment Without logistics, the warfighters who employ tactics will not get very far or do very much. Classes of supply: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classes_of_supply https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classes_of_supply
- czbond 7y agoWouldn't it be: amateurs talk tactics, professional talk logistics, leaders (generals) talk strategy?
- fapjacks 7y agoNo, leaders talk almost exclusively about logistics, and it becomes truer the further up the chain you go. Strategy is for the rifle company commander and his officers.
- paganel 7y agoThrowing napalm over the Vietnamese jungle was a strategy error by the US leaders, and there are also a couple of other such strategical errors of theirs from the last half-century or so that I’m sure have had a very big impact on how the US is seen by the outside world. And in the end, as long as you avoid total annihilation war is almost all about politics, and being seen as the bad guy by the other countries you’re trying to do political business with is bad for politics in the long run. So I’d say strategy still remains the most important thing.
- fapjacks 7y agoMy post was partially a poke at subjective meaning, but if pressed to defend my point, I would say politics is logistics, because logistics is about managing resources, and everything is about managing resources. Napalm to me seems a natural consequence of jungle warfare, and is a fine solution to a hard logistical problem: How do you fight a battalion of local riflemen in the jungle with a company of guys that only ever saw a jungle on television? Incinerate the jungle or spray toxic chemicals on it, killing the jungle and whatever it contains. This is for example why gas was a natural consequence of trench warfare (cf. the ancient gas attack in the Persian siege of Roman-held Dura [0]). However I concede that this and many of the other posts here are essentially a bit of wordplay. That being said, I am very interested in this topic of discussion which you've brought up, because war is a spectre of human nature which is not palatable to anyone. So even if your fight is a good one, it's going to look bad on TV, which is exactly the thing that gets weaponized by your political opponents in furtherance of their own goals. [0] https://archive.archaeology.org/1001/topten/syria.html https://archive.archaeology.org/1001/topten/syria.html
- ggm 7y agoTargetting the logistics destroyed cambodia, and didn't stop the vietnam war. Talking to Ho Chi Minh when he asked for US assistance against French Colonialism would (in clear sense) have saved many lives, and much materiel. amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. Henry Kissinger undermines everything.
- ryacko 7y agoThe US defeated the Vietcong. By many metrics, Vietcong activity greatly dropped. It didn’t stop North Vietnam from invading the South with an army.
- jbigelow76 7y agoThat sounds like a distinction without a difference.
- refurb 7y agoMaybe as an outsider it does, but not within Vietnam.
- acheron9383 7y agoThe Vietcong won because they were willing to pay a very high price to push the US out than the US wanted to eventually pay to stay in
- refurb 7y agoThe Vietnam Cong ceased to be an effective fighting force after the Tet Offensive in ‘68. The battle took a terrible toll on them. The NVA were doing much of the fighting after that.
- ryacko 7y agoThe Tet Offensive was largely comprised of NVA units. Regardless, the supply of military aircraft too complex for local maintenance and the refusal to allow any air support after ‘73 by Congress meant the outcome was already decided.
- mmaunder 7y agoThis is applicable to business. It's fun to come up with tactics or strategy. But feeding the troops (i.e. managing cashflow and making payroll) is the biggest challenge and it's what takes down most startups.
- UweSchmidt 7y agoI assume that's because: - The specific tactics should be kept secret - logistics has a huge role in a WW2-era thinking that still dominates western military thinking - logistics likely needs a lot of peacetime attention and investment
- killjoywashere 7y agoTo your first point, there's some merit in keeping specific tactics, techniques, equipment, and procedures secret, but even that comes down to a resource management (logistics) issue, where information is the resource. To your second point, logistics has a huge role in any war. See Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Mahan, Herodotus, Thucydides, etc. If you're intent was to set up a construct where the US military is woefully behind the 8 ball in modern military something-or-other, I would disagree. So, I don't disagree with your thesis that WW2 affects western military thinking, but I disagree with using that as the basis for any argument about the preparedness of western military thinking or modern war planning. Keep in mind we just exited the intermediate ballistic missile treaty with Russia and are developing hypersonics partially to manage the expanding threat of nuclear weapons, where whole-of-civilization war may be won or lost in minutes. We deploy drones at operational and tactical levels. We invest more in medical collaborations (a soft power move) than most countries spend on their own road systems. We fight at every level all the damn time. To your third point, yes logistics needs a lot of peacetime attention and investment. The inevitable problem is managing the OODA loop between conflicts. As your time between operations increases, the hypothetical space of new possibilities increases and you can't invest in all of them.
- throw0101a 7y agoA lot of 4X games take a larger view of running things than just building units. Good recent examples are Civ 6, EU IV, Stellaris. HOI IV leans more towards combat (being set around WW2), but one still have to manage logistics and directing R&D a lot.