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This (pre volte face) description and quote from Mann is fascinating. Echoes of the current China? "He declared that the country’s essential mission was battl

This (pre volte face) description and quote from Mann is fascinating. Echoes of the current China? "He declared that the country’s essential mission was battling the decadent Western democracies. Mann, who believed France and England were intent upon foisting doctrines that were “foreign and poisonous to the German character,” held that the profundity of its culture meant that the German nation was itself fated to transcend mere politics. Mann went to town:" > I myself confess that I am deeply convinced that the German people will never be able to love political democracy simply because they cannot love politics itself, and that the much decried ‘authoritarian state’ is and remains the one that is proper and becoming to the German people, and the one they basically want.

xmmrm 7y ago
He‘s right. Germans don’t love democracy, they hate themselves.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  Is right? The text goes on to say: > After World War I, Mann, who was living in Munich, had good reason to alter his sentiments as he watched Hitler’s alarming rise [..] He did not attack the Third Reich publicly until February 1936, when he denounced German anti-Semitism in an open letter in the Neue Züricher Zeitung, stating that the barbaric campaign Hitler’s paladins were waging was “aimed, essentially, not at the Jews at all, or not at them exclusively. It is aimed at Europe and at the real spirit of Germany.” The abstract categories we put people in have neither intentions nor characters, only individuals do. So to ascribe a character or intentions to groups always seemed pointless to me, like horoscopes or wine reviews. Maybe it's useful if you have the space for one ad, and want to decide which one might be "the most appealing to Germans". But it seems like an oxymoron when talking about loving democracy, which cannot even be thought without the plurality of actual individuals.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >The text goes on to say Doesn't go on to say that authoritarianism is unbecoming to "the real spirit of Germany". Just that antisemitism is. >The abstract categories we put people in have neither intentions nor characters, only individuals do. So to ascribe a character or intentions to groups always seemed pointless to me, like horoscopes or wine reviews. Well, you can't predict what an individual molecule would do, motion wise, but you can statistically predict the behavior of a collection of lots of molecules and find it has certain characteristics, the same holds true for whole populations. In fact, those shared characteristics, tendencies, etc., we call "culture". Most people follow their culture, like fish swim in water. But even the fewer who dislike their country's culture, they are still nonetheless shaped by it in many degrees (and usually only dislike certain aspects, whereas their dislikes are also typical manifestations within the culture: e.g. how coastal americans might dislike 'flyover' norms, and vice versa). So, yeah, populations have intentions and characters, just like individuals do. And just like in individuals those are fuzzy, but still useful. Since individuals have "intentions nor characters" it would be absurd for collections of individuals not to exhibit "intentions nor characters" too, of a certain type shaped by their shared historical experiences, politics, education, enmities, culture, economy, pop culture and so on.
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      > Well, you can't predict what an individual molecule would do, motion wise, but you can statistically predict the behavior of a collection of lots of molecules and find it has certain characteristics, the same holds true for whole populations. Saying "this material will float in water" is of an entirely different order than statements like "Germans don't love democracy and hate themselves". > In fact, those shared characteristics, tendencies, etc., we call "culture" What does "loving democracy" mean? What does "hating themselves" mean here, precisely? We can't talk about shared characteristics without even being clear about the characteristic. > So, yeah, populations have intentions and characters, just like individuals do. If 10 people all want ice cream, that's 10 people wanting ice cream individually, not "the group wanting ice cream". We can say this is as a shorthand, as long as it's understood that in reality, it refers to the actual people. > And just like in individuals those are fuzzy, but still useful. For what? Can you show me a use for ascribing these characteristics to Germans?

xmmrm 7y ago

He‘s right. Germans don’t love democracy, they hate themselves.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
Is right? The text goes on to say: > After World War I, Mann, who was living in Munich, had good reason to alter his sentiments as he watched Hitler’s alarming rise [..] He did not attack the Third Reich publicly until February 1936, when he denounced German anti-Semitism in an open letter in the Neue Züricher Zeitung, stating that the barbaric campaign Hitler’s paladins were waging was “aimed, essentially, not at the Jews at all, or not at them exclusively. It is aimed at Europe and at the real spirit of Germany.” The abstract categories we put people in have neither intentions nor characters, only individuals do. So to ascribe a character or intentions to groups always seemed pointless to me, like horoscopes or wine reviews. Maybe it's useful if you have the space for one ad, and want to decide which one might be "the most appealing to Germans". But it seems like an oxymoron when talking about loving democracy, which cannot even be thought without the plurality of actual individuals.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >The text goes on to say Doesn't go on to say that authoritarianism is unbecoming to "the real spirit of Germany". Just that antisemitism is. >The abstract categories we put people in have neither intentions nor characters, only individuals do. So to ascribe a character or intentions to groups always seemed pointless to me, like horoscopes or wine reviews. Well, you can't predict what an individual molecule would do, motion wise, but you can statistically predict the behavior of a collection of lots of molecules and find it has certain characteristics, the same holds true for whole populations. In fact, those shared characteristics, tendencies, etc., we call "culture". Most people follow their culture, like fish swim in water. But even the fewer who dislike their country's culture, they are still nonetheless shaped by it in many degrees (and usually only dislike certain aspects, whereas their dislikes are also typical manifestations within the culture: e.g. how coastal americans might dislike 'flyover' norms, and vice versa). So, yeah, populations have intentions and characters, just like individuals do. And just like in individuals those are fuzzy, but still useful. Since individuals have "intentions nor characters" it would be absurd for collections of individuals not to exhibit "intentions nor characters" too, of a certain type shaped by their shared historical experiences, politics, education, enmities, culture, economy, pop culture and so on.
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > Well, you can't predict what an individual molecule would do, motion wise, but you can statistically predict the behavior of a collection of lots of molecules and find it has certain characteristics, the same holds true for whole populations. Saying "this material will float in water" is of an entirely different order than statements like "Germans don't love democracy and hate themselves". > In fact, those shared characteristics, tendencies, etc., we call "culture" What does "loving democracy" mean? What does "hating themselves" mean here, precisely? We can't talk about shared characteristics without even being clear about the characteristic. > So, yeah, populations have intentions and characters, just like individuals do. If 10 people all want ice cream, that's 10 people wanting ice cream individually, not "the group wanting ice cream". We can say this is as a shorthand, as long as it's understood that in reality, it refers to the actual people. > And just like in individuals those are fuzzy, but still useful. For what? Can you show me a use for ascribing these characteristics to Germans?