5 ms·

Because they do stuff like this https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-detains-women-speaking-spanish-montana-gas-station-n876096 https://www.

by _bxg1 7y ago

Because they do stuff like this https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-detains-women-speaking-spanish-montana-gas-station-n876096 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-deta...

m0zg 7y ago
Fresh off the Resolute desk: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-ends-family-separation https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-...
- openasocket 7y ago
  They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. These aren't random people off the street, these are people with valid claims of asylum who have passed the credible fear interview administered by CBP. Almost all of them will stay in contact with the courts and go to all their appointments. The editorial also neglects to mention that our facilities are greatly over capacity, that this change will make that much much worse, and that thanks to the backlog of immigration cases these families would have to be in these facilities for 5 years or more. To say nothing of the abuses and poor conditions. And, once again, these families seeking asylum have not committed any crime, they have done nothing illegal.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    On top of that detention is the maximally cruel way to do things. IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      > IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down. That is not correct. Even sites seeking to argue against the high rates of skipping asylum hearings put their no-show figures at 40-50%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    >They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing There are many issues, yes. Why can't you give the administration credit for fixing one of them? Why point to another problem and say, "but this isn't fixed yet!"
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. Granted, there have been a large increase in the number of people who skip their asylum hearings. From 2013 to 2017 this figure was lower, averaging ~44%. More recent samples put this figure in the 70% range and by some estimates even into the 90% range. We could have ICE deport people who miss their hearings but ICE raids generate even more negative PR than detaining people at the border.
  - pacala 7y ago
    75% or more of asylum claims from central americans are ultimately denied. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-by-nationality/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-...
    - openasocket 7y ago
      Doesn't matter though, they are still not breaking the law. There are a lot of factors involved in those numbers. For starters, immigration court does not provide public defenders. If you can't afford a lawyer, and can't find a lawyer willing to work pro bono, you have to represent yourself. Yes, even if you are a minor. And having an attorney, according to your article, makes it 5x more likely for your claim to be accepted. There's also the fact that standards for being granted asylum can be arbitrary and not subject to proper review. Immigration judges work for the DOJ, not the judicial system, and are appointed by the Attorney General. The Attorney General also has fairly broad powers to increase the burden of proof for asylum cases, and limiting the circumstances in which an asylum claim is valid. The AG can also directly override the decisions of judges and deny asylum. For example: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/ag-barr-using-unique-power-block-migrants-u-s-reshape-n1036276 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/ag-barr-using-u...
      - onepointsixC 7y ago
        >they are still not breaking the law. Yes they are, illegally entering the United States is breaking the law.
        openasocket 7y ago
        Not according to Title 8 Section 1158, in the first sentence: "Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title." https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158
  - m0zg 7y ago
    >> they have done nothing illegal Crossing into the US illegally is by definition illegal. Misdemeanor, to be exact.
    - openasocket 7y ago
      I'll point you to Title 8 Section 1158, 1(a), as mentioned in other places in this thread. Asylum seekers may be excused for illegal entry into the US. An asylum seeker can even use a fake passport to get through customs to apply for asylum: see Akinmade v. INS as an example.
navigatesol 7y ago
>Because they do stuff like this So one border guard does something, and it's okay to say "they do things like this"? Isn't that exactly the argument Trump makes about illegal immigrants comitting crimes?
- navigatesol 7y ago
  So can no one explain the logic here? CBP are bad, because some jerk did something bad in Montana. But you lose your minds when the crazy right says the same thing about Muslims or illegal immigrants? Are generalizations and stereotypes acceptable for policy or not? I can't keep up.
1111236112347 7y ago
Note that the article you linked is about CBP, which is not part of ICE. Also note that ICE doesn't just enforce immigration laws, they also do things like this: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-second-time-illegally-possessing-silencer-conversion-switches https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-se... Officers executed a search warrant at Lee’s residence and found numerous firearms, ammunition, firearm suppressors, suspected methamphetamine, marijuana, suspected stolen farm equipment, and a large amount of cash. Lee told officers that he received 10 to15 past deliveries of the selector switches, and that he converted and successfully fired a Glock pistol as a fully automatic firearm.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  > The superseding indictment resulted from an investigation by the following agencies: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; U.S. Postal Inspection Service; and Newton (Missouri) Sheriff’s Department. I'd rather take the chance that those several other law enforcement agencies couldn't have worked it out on their own than have thousands of innocent families torn apart and kept in cages.
  - 1111236112347 7y ago
    Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      > Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration? Maybe, I don't know. But the problem right now is they have an excuse. We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit. And what we end up with are goon squads harassing and imprisoning innocents based on technicalities. I don't think that sort of thing could persist at this scale without the pretense that these agencies provide. I'll put it this way: I live in southern Texas. I'm who they're allegedly protecting. And if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.

by _bxg1 7y ago

m0zg 7y ago

Fresh off the Resolute desk: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-ends-family-separation https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-...

openasocket 7y ago
They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. These aren't random people off the street, these are people with valid claims of asylum who have passed the credible fear interview administered by CBP. Almost all of them will stay in contact with the courts and go to all their appointments. The editorial also neglects to mention that our facilities are greatly over capacity, that this change will make that much much worse, and that thanks to the backlog of immigration cases these families would have to be in these facilities for 5 years or more. To say nothing of the abuses and poor conditions. And, once again, these families seeking asylum have not committed any crime, they have done nothing illegal.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  On top of that detention is the maximally cruel way to do things. IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down. That is not correct. Even sites seeking to argue against the high rates of skipping asylum hearings put their no-show figures at 40-50%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing There are many issues, yes. Why can't you give the administration credit for fixing one of them? Why point to another problem and say, "but this isn't fixed yet!"
- manfredo 7y ago
  > They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. Granted, there have been a large increase in the number of people who skip their asylum hearings. From 2013 to 2017 this figure was lower, averaging ~44%. More recent samples put this figure in the 70% range and by some estimates even into the 90% range. We could have ICE deport people who miss their hearings but ICE raids generate even more negative PR than detaining people at the border.
- pacala 7y ago
  75% or more of asylum claims from central americans are ultimately denied. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-by-nationality/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-...
  - openasocket 7y ago
    Doesn't matter though, they are still not breaking the law. There are a lot of factors involved in those numbers. For starters, immigration court does not provide public defenders. If you can't afford a lawyer, and can't find a lawyer willing to work pro bono, you have to represent yourself. Yes, even if you are a minor. And having an attorney, according to your article, makes it 5x more likely for your claim to be accepted. There's also the fact that standards for being granted asylum can be arbitrary and not subject to proper review. Immigration judges work for the DOJ, not the judicial system, and are appointed by the Attorney General. The Attorney General also has fairly broad powers to increase the burden of proof for asylum cases, and limiting the circumstances in which an asylum claim is valid. The AG can also directly override the decisions of judges and deny asylum. For example: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/ag-barr-using-unique-power-block-migrants-u-s-reshape-n1036276 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/ag-barr-using-u...
    - onepointsixC 7y ago
      >they are still not breaking the law. Yes they are, illegally entering the United States is breaking the law.
      - openasocket 7y ago
        Not according to Title 8 Section 1158, in the first sentence: "Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title." https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158
- m0zg 7y ago
  >> they have done nothing illegal Crossing into the US illegally is by definition illegal. Misdemeanor, to be exact.
  - openasocket 7y ago
    I'll point you to Title 8 Section 1158, 1(a), as mentioned in other places in this thread. Asylum seekers may be excused for illegal entry into the US. An asylum seeker can even use a fake passport to get through customs to apply for asylum: see Akinmade v. INS as an example.

navigatesol 7y ago

>Because they do stuff like this So one border guard does something, and it's okay to say "they do things like this"? Isn't that exactly the argument Trump makes about illegal immigrants comitting crimes?

navigatesol 7y ago
So can no one explain the logic here? CBP are bad, because some jerk did something bad in Montana. But you lose your minds when the crazy right says the same thing about Muslims or illegal immigrants? Are generalizations and stereotypes acceptable for policy or not? I can't keep up.

1111236112347 7y ago

Note that the article you linked is about CBP, which is not part of ICE. Also note that ICE doesn't just enforce immigration laws, they also do things like this: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-second-time-illegally-possessing-silencer-conversion-switches https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-se... Officers executed a search warrant at Lee’s residence and found numerous firearms, ammunition, firearm suppressors, suspected methamphetamine, marijuana, suspected stolen farm equipment, and a large amount of cash. Lee told officers that he received 10 to15 past deliveries of the selector switches, and that he converted and successfully fired a Glock pistol as a fully automatic firearm.

_bxg1 7y ago
> The superseding indictment resulted from an investigation by the following agencies: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; U.S. Postal Inspection Service; and Newton (Missouri) Sheriff’s Department. I'd rather take the chance that those several other law enforcement agencies couldn't have worked it out on their own than have thousands of innocent families torn apart and kept in cages.
- 1111236112347 7y ago
  Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    > Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration? Maybe, I don't know. But the problem right now is they have an excuse. We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit. And what we end up with are goon squads harassing and imprisoning innocents based on technicalities. I don't think that sort of thing could persist at this scale without the pretense that these agencies provide. I'll put it this way: I live in southern Texas. I'm who they're allegedly protecting. And if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.