7 ms·

I am assuming ICE is "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement". I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing.

by qazpot 7y ago

throwawaytoday5 7y ago
ICE is a recent phenomenon whose creation was only due to 9/11 attacks. Prior everything they did was handled by other organizations more effectively.
_bxg1 7y ago
Because they do stuff like this https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-detains-women-speaking-spanish-montana-gas-station-n876096 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-deta...
- m0zg 7y ago
  Fresh off the Resolute desk: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-ends-family-separation https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-...
  - openasocket 7y ago
    They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. These aren't random people off the street, these are people with valid claims of asylum who have passed the credible fear interview administered by CBP. Almost all of them will stay in contact with the courts and go to all their appointments. The editorial also neglects to mention that our facilities are greatly over capacity, that this change will make that much much worse, and that thanks to the backlog of immigration cases these families would have to be in these facilities for 5 years or more. To say nothing of the abuses and poor conditions. And, once again, these families seeking asylum have not committed any crime, they have done nothing illegal.
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      On top of that detention is the maximally cruel way to do things. IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.
      - manfredo 7y ago
        > IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down. That is not correct. Even sites seeking to argue against the high rates of skipping asylum hearings put their no-show figures at 40-50%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      >They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing There are many issues, yes. Why can't you give the administration credit for fixing one of them? Why point to another problem and say, "but this isn't fixed yet!"
    - manfredo 7y ago
      > They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. Granted, there have been a large increase in the number of people who skip their asylum hearings. From 2013 to 2017 this figure was lower, averaging ~44%. More recent samples put this figure in the 70% range and by some estimates even into the 90% range. We could have ICE deport people who miss their hearings but ICE raids generate even more negative PR than detaining people at the border.
    - pacala 7y ago
      75% or more of asylum claims from central americans are ultimately denied. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-by-nationality/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-...
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >Because they do stuff like this So one border guard does something, and it's okay to say "they do things like this"? Isn't that exactly the argument Trump makes about illegal immigrants comitting crimes?
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    So can no one explain the logic here? CBP are bad, because some jerk did something bad in Montana. But you lose your minds when the crazy right says the same thing about Muslims or illegal immigrants? Are generalizations and stereotypes acceptable for policy or not? I can't keep up.
- 1111236112347 7y ago
  Note that the article you linked is about CBP, which is not part of ICE. Also note that ICE doesn't just enforce immigration laws, they also do things like this: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-second-time-illegally-possessing-silencer-conversion-switches https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-se... Officers executed a search warrant at Lee’s residence and found numerous firearms, ammunition, firearm suppressors, suspected methamphetamine, marijuana, suspected stolen farm equipment, and a large amount of cash. Lee told officers that he received 10 to15 past deliveries of the selector switches, and that he converted and successfully fired a Glock pistol as a fully automatic firearm.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    > The superseding indictment resulted from an investigation by the following agencies: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; U.S. Postal Inspection Service; and Newton (Missouri) Sheriff’s Department. I'd rather take the chance that those several other law enforcement agencies couldn't have worked it out on their own than have thousands of innocent families torn apart and kept in cages.
    - 1111236112347 7y ago
      Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        > Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration? Maybe, I don't know. But the problem right now is they have an excuse. We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit. And what we end up with are goon squads harassing and imprisoning innocents based on technicalities. I don't think that sort of thing could persist at this scale without the pretense that these agencies provide. I'll put it this way: I live in southern Texas. I'm who they're allegedly protecting. And if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.
tastygreenapple 7y ago
One political faction needs ICE to be evil for their narrative and world view to make sense. You're seeing propaganda. Consider that child seperation is a consequence of the massive amounts of human trafficking happening on the Mexico and US border. Criminals buy kids and fake a relationship with the kid to get more favorable treatment from law enforcement. The reality is that these kids are abused in the worst ways and sepration is critical for law enforcement to talk to the kid and make sure that the story checks out. It's a bit of a horror story, but a 10 year old girl crossing the border was found to have 20 different semen samples inside her: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/texas-medical-professional-migrants-quarantined-with-unknown-disease-10-year-old-girl-found-with-20-types-of-semen-in-her/ https://bigleaguepolitics.com/texas-medical-professional-mig... this is why seperation happens.
pjc50 7y ago
ICE's recent policy of separating children from their families and then holding them in inadequate conditions with insufficient medical care is starting to produce tiny coffins: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-deaths-20190524-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-de...
- 1111236112347 7y ago
  This article is about CBP, which is not part of ICE, and ICE is not mentioned anywhere in it. I'm not raising this point to be pedantic or discount the tragedy. I just think it's important to have an accurate understanding of the organizational structure if one wants to make meaningful changes to it.
cat199 7y ago
Recent, immediate politics bearing on the agency here aside, we like to philosophically separate ourselves from the government in discourse, rather than seeing it as one part of our own, singular, cohesive society. see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense_(pamphlet) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense_(pamphlet) etc.
lamigra_burner 7y ago
Before 9/11 nothing. For the last two decades, it's almost like cruelty is a requirement to work in that dept. USCIS and CPB are still alright though.
anthony_doan 7y ago
> I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing. Because there are reports of ICE doing inhumane things toward the people they have detained. 1) Children are being separated from families. 2) Children are dying under ICE facilities. 3) The jailing of asylum seekers. These are the few things that lead many people to believe ICE is evil. Where as the other side seems to be concentrating on the illegal immigrants. It also come down to the morality of what they're doing and if this is similar to internment camp or concentration camp.
- tastygreenapple 7y ago
  but none of these features are new, child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities happened under the Obama administration and it wasn't a big deal then. What changed?
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Source? Every news article I've seen shows that the problem is far worse under Trump.
    - ericmay 7y ago
      I'm not sure about how much worse things were. But I saw a source from NBC that says it was not practiced under the Obama administration although they very briefly considered it.[1] This was a quote I thought relevant, however because I don't think it was rainbows and unicorns under Obama either: "The Obama administration did detain families together — some indefinitely — in hopes of deterring future migrants back in 2014, earning protests and public outrage at the time." [1] [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/...
    - nabnob 7y ago
      It actually was higher under Obama - https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obama-a72a0a44-540d-46bc-a671-cd65cf72f4b1.html https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obam... >By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016. >Under Trump, ICE deportations fell to 226,119 in fiscal 2017, then ticked up to over 250,000 in fiscal 2018 and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year (as of June). Edit: I'm not saying I support Trump or ICE, my point is that Obama was hardly a leftist.

I am assuming ICE is "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement". I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing.

by qazpot 7y ago

I am assuming ICE is "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement". I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing.

throwawaytoday5 7y ago

ICE is a recent phenomenon whose creation was only due to 9/11 attacks. Prior everything they did was handled by other organizations more effectively.

_bxg1 7y ago

Because they do stuff like this https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-detains-women-speaking-spanish-montana-gas-station-n876096 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-deta...

m0zg 7y ago
Fresh off the Resolute desk: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-ends-family-separation https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-...
- openasocket 7y ago
  They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. These aren't random people off the street, these are people with valid claims of asylum who have passed the credible fear interview administered by CBP. Almost all of them will stay in contact with the courts and go to all their appointments. The editorial also neglects to mention that our facilities are greatly over capacity, that this change will make that much much worse, and that thanks to the backlog of immigration cases these families would have to be in these facilities for 5 years or more. To say nothing of the abuses and poor conditions. And, once again, these families seeking asylum have not committed any crime, they have done nothing illegal.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    On top of that detention is the maximally cruel way to do things. IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      > IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down. That is not correct. Even sites seeking to argue against the high rates of skipping asylum hearings put their no-show figures at 40-50%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    >They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing There are many issues, yes. Why can't you give the administration credit for fixing one of them? Why point to another problem and say, "but this isn't fixed yet!"
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. Granted, there have been a large increase in the number of people who skip their asylum hearings. From 2013 to 2017 this figure was lower, averaging ~44%. More recent samples put this figure in the 70% range and by some estimates even into the 90% range. We could have ICE deport people who miss their hearings but ICE raids generate even more negative PR than detaining people at the border.
  - pacala 7y ago
    75% or more of asylum claims from central americans are ultimately denied. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-by-nationality/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-...
navigatesol 7y ago
>Because they do stuff like this So one border guard does something, and it's okay to say "they do things like this"? Isn't that exactly the argument Trump makes about illegal immigrants comitting crimes?
- navigatesol 7y ago
  So can no one explain the logic here? CBP are bad, because some jerk did something bad in Montana. But you lose your minds when the crazy right says the same thing about Muslims or illegal immigrants? Are generalizations and stereotypes acceptable for policy or not? I can't keep up.
1111236112347 7y ago
Note that the article you linked is about CBP, which is not part of ICE. Also note that ICE doesn't just enforce immigration laws, they also do things like this: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-second-time-illegally-possessing-silencer-conversion-switches https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-se... Officers executed a search warrant at Lee’s residence and found numerous firearms, ammunition, firearm suppressors, suspected methamphetamine, marijuana, suspected stolen farm equipment, and a large amount of cash. Lee told officers that he received 10 to15 past deliveries of the selector switches, and that he converted and successfully fired a Glock pistol as a fully automatic firearm.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  > The superseding indictment resulted from an investigation by the following agencies: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; U.S. Postal Inspection Service; and Newton (Missouri) Sheriff’s Department. I'd rather take the chance that those several other law enforcement agencies couldn't have worked it out on their own than have thousands of innocent families torn apart and kept in cages.
  - 1111236112347 7y ago
    Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      > Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration? Maybe, I don't know. But the problem right now is they have an excuse. We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit. And what we end up with are goon squads harassing and imprisoning innocents based on technicalities. I don't think that sort of thing could persist at this scale without the pretense that these agencies provide. I'll put it this way: I live in southern Texas. I'm who they're allegedly protecting. And if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.

tastygreenapple 7y ago

One political faction needs ICE to be evil for their narrative and world view to make sense. You're seeing propaganda. Consider that child seperation is a consequence of the massive amounts of human trafficking happening on the Mexico and US border. Criminals buy kids and fake a relationship with the kid to get more favorable treatment from law enforcement. The reality is that these kids are abused in the worst ways and sepration is critical for law enforcement to talk to the kid and make sure that the story checks out. It's a bit of a horror story, but a 10 year old girl crossing the border was found to have 20 different semen samples inside her: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/texas-medical-professional-migrants-quarantined-with-unknown-disease-10-year-old-girl-found-with-20-types-of-semen-in-her/ https://bigleaguepolitics.com/texas-medical-professional-mig... this is why seperation happens.

pjc50 7y ago

ICE's recent policy of separating children from their families and then holding them in inadequate conditions with insufficient medical care is starting to produce tiny coffins: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-deaths-20190524-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-de...

1111236112347 7y ago
This article is about CBP, which is not part of ICE, and ICE is not mentioned anywhere in it. I'm not raising this point to be pedantic or discount the tragedy. I just think it's important to have an accurate understanding of the organizational structure if one wants to make meaningful changes to it.

cat199 7y ago

Recent, immediate politics bearing on the agency here aside, we like to philosophically separate ourselves from the government in discourse, rather than seeing it as one part of our own, singular, cohesive society. see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense_(pamphlet) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense_(pamphlet) etc.

lamigra_burner 7y ago

Before 9/11 nothing. For the last two decades, it's almost like cruelty is a requirement to work in that dept. USCIS and CPB are still alright though.

anthony_doan 7y ago

> I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing. Because there are reports of ICE doing inhumane things toward the people they have detained. 1) Children are being separated from families. 2) Children are dying under ICE facilities. 3) The jailing of asylum seekers. These are the few things that lead many people to believe ICE is evil. Where as the other side seems to be concentrating on the illegal immigrants. It also come down to the morality of what they're doing and if this is similar to internment camp or concentration camp.

tastygreenapple 7y ago
but none of these features are new, child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities happened under the Obama administration and it wasn't a big deal then. What changed?
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Source? Every news article I've seen shows that the problem is far worse under Trump.
  - ericmay 7y ago
    I'm not sure about how much worse things were. But I saw a source from NBC that says it was not practiced under the Obama administration although they very briefly considered it.[1] This was a quote I thought relevant, however because I don't think it was rainbows and unicorns under Obama either: "The Obama administration did detain families together — some indefinitely — in hopes of deterring future migrants back in 2014, earning protests and public outrage at the time." [1] [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/...
  - nabnob 7y ago
    It actually was higher under Obama - https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obama-a72a0a44-540d-46bc-a671-cd65cf72f4b1.html https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obam... >By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016. >Under Trump, ICE deportations fell to 226,119 in fiscal 2017, then ticked up to over 250,000 in fiscal 2018 and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year (as of June). Edit: I'm not saying I support Trump or ICE, my point is that Obama was hardly a leftist.