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I think that's exactly Google's point. They're trying to build an alternative system which allows ad personalization, but blocks the sort of intrusive tracking

I think that's exactly Google's point. They're trying to build an alternative system which allows ad personalization, but blocks the sort of intrusive tracking prevalent in the modern-day advertising industry.

iamben 7y ago
Agreed - this and allowing _enough_ tracking that publishers can actually understand where ad budget is best spent, without jeopardising an individual's privacy.
ignoramous 7y ago
Au contraire, the proposed schemes increasingly hand the control over to browser vendors (Chrome) and BigTech (hint). It also does nothing to prevent user control and propaganda machine that has been built on top the mass privacy grave. The news papers have the right model (in terms of privacy): I'd rather online businesses who's revenue model is dependent on ads, do that instead. Like they did with AMP, Google could offer to peanlise websites in their search results that excessively fingerprint users? Show a red bad banner on Chrome? Not these workaround that warrant new mitigations techniques 'cause third-party cookie blocking won't be enough now.
- Ajedi32 7y ago
  True, it does hand control to browser vendors. But I think I'd rather my browser have control over the information used to personalize ads served to me rather than that information being available to advertisers directly. Google is taking steps to stop excessive fingerprinting[1][2], so it's not like they're just adding new systems for ad personalization without closing off the existing, more intrusive ones. [1]: https://blog.chromium.org/2019/05/improving-privacy-and-security-on-web.html https://blog.chromium.org/2019/05/improving-privacy-and-secu... [2]: https://github.com/bslassey/privacy-budget https://github.com/bslassey/privacy-budget
  - blub 7y ago
    Google Chrome, the most popular browser is developed by Google the advertiser, the biggest advertiser, so preferring one over the other makes zero difference.
    - Ajedi32 7y ago
      Of course there's a difference. Instead of hundreds of advertising companies having access to my data, this way there's only one. And that's even ignoring the difference between my ad preference data being stored on a company's servers, versus stored locally on my machine by my browser.
      - ignoramous 7y ago
        I like your optimism, and I don't mean to patronise you, but I agree with your points if I keep the short term in mind. In the long run; however, I feel one would be disappointed in what the ad-industry will turn this privacy-sandbox into. Refusal to ack DNT and dark patterns in-use all throughout the interwebs stands testament to this. Advertisement has, unfortunately, degraded into a plague spreading scareware, spyware, malware, scamware and what not. It gets worse with each passing day as more unsuspecting users discover internet for the first time. The surveillance appartus that the industry has built has made robots out of humans, mere instruments to be toyed with. Not all parts of the advertisement industry is worthy of our data but have access to it anyway, because they've got the money to burn that companies like Google and Facebook scramble over to gather. These companies need to be forced to come up with alternative business models or ads that do not require extensive surveillance, or I am afraid given the unprecedented data they have amassed, they will attract, in the long term, all sorts of power-hungry designs and the outcome is going to be a disaster for everyone else but the power-grabbers. The result isn't going to be pretty. Sorry to go all Orwellian on you.
        Ajedi32 7y ago
        > These companies need to be forced to come up with alternative business models or ads that do not require extensive surveillance That's exactly what Google is trying to do here. They're replacing the existing ad system with one that does not require surveillance to achieve ad targeting.
driverdan 7y ago
> They're trying to build an alternative system which allows ad personalization That's the antithesis of privacy. You can't have personalization without privacy invasion.
- a1369209993 7y ago
  Sure you can: <ad> <adsrc href="/ad/car" src="car.png" keyword="automobile"> <adsrc href="/ad/pet" src="pet.png" keyword="cat dog pets"> ... </ad> Of course this "allows" ad blocking, so Google will come up with some reason to reject it, but it's a perfectly workable system.
  - adtac 7y ago
    so list all ads for every category under the sun in every page?
- Ajedi32 7y ago
  That's false, and can be trivially shown to be so with a simple hypothetical counterexample: Imagine a system where ad servers sent 10 ads to your browser instead of one, and then your browser decided which ad to show you based on some settings you previously selected in your browser settings page. There you have it: personalization without privacy invasion. Easy. Google's system will undoubtedly be a bit more complex than that, but there's no reason why it would necessarily have to invade your privacy just because it allows ad customization.
  - Drdrdrq 7y ago
    The system you suggest doesn't come near privacy. Sure, there is some uncertainty over which ad was shown, but as soon as it is clicked you have revealed that too. And it's clicks and page visits that buils visitor's profile, much more than ad views.
    - wstrange 7y ago
      If you are that concerned about privacy, why would you click on the ad?

iamben 7y ago

Agreed - this and allowing _enough_ tracking that publishers can actually understand where ad budget is best spent, without jeopardising an individual's privacy.

ignoramous 7y ago

Au contraire, the proposed schemes increasingly hand the control over to browser vendors (Chrome) and BigTech (hint). It also does nothing to prevent user control and propaganda machine that has been built on top the mass privacy grave. The news papers have the right model (in terms of privacy): I'd rather online businesses who's revenue model is dependent on ads, do that instead. Like they did with AMP, Google could offer to peanlise websites in their search results that excessively fingerprint users? Show a red bad banner on Chrome? Not these workaround that warrant new mitigations techniques 'cause third-party cookie blocking won't be enough now.

Ajedi32 7y ago
True, it does hand control to browser vendors. But I think I'd rather my browser have control over the information used to personalize ads served to me rather than that information being available to advertisers directly. Google is taking steps to stop excessive fingerprinting[1][2], so it's not like they're just adding new systems for ad personalization without closing off the existing, more intrusive ones. [1]: https://blog.chromium.org/2019/05/improving-privacy-and-security-on-web.html https://blog.chromium.org/2019/05/improving-privacy-and-secu... [2]: https://github.com/bslassey/privacy-budget https://github.com/bslassey/privacy-budget
- blub 7y ago
  Google Chrome, the most popular browser is developed by Google the advertiser, the biggest advertiser, so preferring one over the other makes zero difference.
  - Ajedi32 7y ago
    Of course there's a difference. Instead of hundreds of advertising companies having access to my data, this way there's only one. And that's even ignoring the difference between my ad preference data being stored on a company's servers, versus stored locally on my machine by my browser.
    - ignoramous 7y ago
      I like your optimism, and I don't mean to patronise you, but I agree with your points if I keep the short term in mind. In the long run; however, I feel one would be disappointed in what the ad-industry will turn this privacy-sandbox into. Refusal to ack DNT and dark patterns in-use all throughout the interwebs stands testament to this. Advertisement has, unfortunately, degraded into a plague spreading scareware, spyware, malware, scamware and what not. It gets worse with each passing day as more unsuspecting users discover internet for the first time. The surveillance appartus that the industry has built has made robots out of humans, mere instruments to be toyed with. Not all parts of the advertisement industry is worthy of our data but have access to it anyway, because they've got the money to burn that companies like Google and Facebook scramble over to gather. These companies need to be forced to come up with alternative business models or ads that do not require extensive surveillance, or I am afraid given the unprecedented data they have amassed, they will attract, in the long term, all sorts of power-hungry designs and the outcome is going to be a disaster for everyone else but the power-grabbers. The result isn't going to be pretty. Sorry to go all Orwellian on you.
      - Ajedi32 7y ago
        > These companies need to be forced to come up with alternative business models or ads that do not require extensive surveillance That's exactly what Google is trying to do here. They're replacing the existing ad system with one that does not require surveillance to achieve ad targeting.

driverdan 7y ago

> They're trying to build an alternative system which allows ad personalization That's the antithesis of privacy. You can't have personalization without privacy invasion.

a1369209993 7y ago
Sure you can: <ad> <adsrc href="/ad/car" src="car.png" keyword="automobile"> <adsrc href="/ad/pet" src="pet.png" keyword="cat dog pets"> ... </ad> Of course this "allows" ad blocking, so Google will come up with some reason to reject it, but it's a perfectly workable system.
- adtac 7y ago
  so list all ads for every category under the sun in every page?
Ajedi32 7y ago
That's false, and can be trivially shown to be so with a simple hypothetical counterexample: Imagine a system where ad servers sent 10 ads to your browser instead of one, and then your browser decided which ad to show you based on some settings you previously selected in your browser settings page. There you have it: personalization without privacy invasion. Easy. Google's system will undoubtedly be a bit more complex than that, but there's no reason why it would necessarily have to invade your privacy just because it allows ad customization.
- Drdrdrq 7y ago
  The system you suggest doesn't come near privacy. Sure, there is some uncertainty over which ad was shown, but as soon as it is clicked you have revealed that too. And it's clicks and page visits that buils visitor's profile, much more than ad views.
  - wstrange 7y ago
    If you are that concerned about privacy, why would you click on the ad?