4 ms·

Ok, can't. This doesn't change the rest of what I said, though: Have the freelance artist spend some time fixing up the tileset as a whole!

eropple 7y ago
I think you may not be grasping how tiny the margins here are. Where's the money come from to do it?
- cosarara 7y ago
  We don't have numbers on the table, so we can't really talk about money. I am presenting what I think would be an efficient use of the money. Not paying a full time artist, not hiring an art director, just having someone with some sense of art fix up the whole asset directory a bit instead of simply asking people to do things generic like he says he does in the article. How much time will depend on the budget. This is just my idea, of course. Maybe he already tried it a bit and it doesn't give as much of a result as I think.
  - eropple 7y ago
    I don't know JV's numbers, but I know mine and a high-quality visual artist who speaks fluent/first-language English and has the sort of willingness to play nice with others' art can be $50/hour. And for a game like these, you're talking quite a few hours, you know? You can go offshore for cheaper, but then you introduce risk, and if nothing else, JV's model is to minimize risk as much as is possible.
    - zimpenfish 7y ago
      > I don't know JV's numbers http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-gam... covers "Geneforge 4: Rebellion" (tl;dr: average performer, $120k budget, almost in the black after 3 years.)
      - eropple 7y ago
        I recall that post (I've been a fan of JV's work, and his blog, for a long time!) but that's ten years old now and the market has gotten more competitive. I think that post is actually pre-Steam, though might push it the other way--I recall that he did really well for himself early on after going to Steam. He has a really good GDC talk that goes into more detail and might shed light on why he operates the way he does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs
    - ac29 7y ago
      Their current game raised just shy of $100k on Kickstarter [0]. Presumably there have been additional presales via other platforms such as Steam as well. Given that, $10-20k as an art budget doesn't seem unreasonable to me, though I have no idea how to estimate how long it would take to do the art for one of his games and if that would be enough budget (probably not at $50/hour, but maybe at $25-30/hour). [0] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619141553/queens-wish-the-conqueror https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619141553/queens-wish-t...
      - eropple 7y ago
        $100K is more like $93K after Kickstarter's cut. Further, I can't speak to the tax implications though I would assume they're nontrivial. And he has to pay himself enough to live for a year or more to get the game done and out the door. This stuff is really raw and really hard at the margins and tolerances we are talking about here.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Not only the margins, but the number of units sold. Many indie devs are lucky to sell a few hundred or a few thousand copies.
kelnos 7y ago
That costs extra money. If he were to do that, that money would come directly out of his ability to provide for his family. And he's not convinced that it would increase sales enough to make up for it. Maybe he's wrong, and it would, but at first blush I'd trust him to have the best instincts about his own business.

eropple 7y ago

I think you may not be grasping how tiny the margins here are. Where's the money come from to do it?

cosarara 7y ago
We don't have numbers on the table, so we can't really talk about money. I am presenting what I think would be an efficient use of the money. Not paying a full time artist, not hiring an art director, just having someone with some sense of art fix up the whole asset directory a bit instead of simply asking people to do things generic like he says he does in the article. How much time will depend on the budget. This is just my idea, of course. Maybe he already tried it a bit and it doesn't give as much of a result as I think.
- eropple 7y ago
  I don't know JV's numbers, but I know mine and a high-quality visual artist who speaks fluent/first-language English and has the sort of willingness to play nice with others' art can be $50/hour. And for a game like these, you're talking quite a few hours, you know? You can go offshore for cheaper, but then you introduce risk, and if nothing else, JV's model is to minimize risk as much as is possible.
  - zimpenfish 7y ago
    > I don't know JV's numbers http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-gam... covers "Geneforge 4: Rebellion" (tl;dr: average performer, $120k budget, almost in the black after 3 years.)
    - eropple 7y ago
      I recall that post (I've been a fan of JV's work, and his blog, for a long time!) but that's ten years old now and the market has gotten more competitive. I think that post is actually pre-Steam, though might push it the other way--I recall that he did really well for himself early on after going to Steam. He has a really good GDC talk that goes into more detail and might shed light on why he operates the way he does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs
  - ac29 7y ago
    Their current game raised just shy of $100k on Kickstarter [0]. Presumably there have been additional presales via other platforms such as Steam as well. Given that, $10-20k as an art budget doesn't seem unreasonable to me, though I have no idea how to estimate how long it would take to do the art for one of his games and if that would be enough budget (probably not at $50/hour, but maybe at $25-30/hour). [0] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619141553/queens-wish-the-conqueror https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619141553/queens-wish-t...
    - eropple 7y ago
      $100K is more like $93K after Kickstarter's cut. Further, I can't speak to the tax implications though I would assume they're nontrivial. And he has to pay himself enough to live for a year or more to get the game done and out the door. This stuff is really raw and really hard at the margins and tolerances we are talking about here.
Pfhreak 7y ago
Not only the margins, but the number of units sold. Many indie devs are lucky to sell a few hundred or a few thousand copies.

kelnos 7y ago

That costs extra money. If he were to do that, that money would come directly out of his ability to provide for his family. And he's not convinced that it would increase sales enough to make up for it. Maybe he's wrong, and it would, but at first blush I'd trust him to have the best instincts about his own business.