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So, reading this thread is making me really not want to have children. Seems like one would have to be completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that. Peopl

So, reading this thread is making me really not want to have children. Seems like one would have to be completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that. People that have children. Do you think it was honestly a good idea in retrospect, and if so, why? If your wife had been on the fence about having children, would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect?

roland35 7y ago
Having two kids myself, it has been the best thing to happen to me by far. I never really thought about having kids until my late 20's, so I can understand why people may want to go child-free. Kids are a huge investment of time and effort after all! But personally I could not imagine it any other way. Also, it is nice to have a receptive audience to dad jokes.
- agent008t 7y ago
  So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? Or is it more that those difficulties are fairly short-term, and in the longer run don't really matter / are forgotten? Say, like preparing for and sitting a difficult exam, or going to the dentist, etc.
  - seidleroni 7y ago
    As a dad myself (2.5 yr old and an almost 1 year old), the negatives do not seem to be exaggerated at all. Going to work as a software engineer is the easiest part of my day, by far. What is not always mentioned are the wonderful parts of it, which is hard to describe. Scott Hanselman wrote something where he said that having kids is 49% awful and 51% amazing, and that 1% makes all the difference, and it really hits the nail on the head. I also think its worth putting into perspective that every week it gets a tiny bit easier. I'm happy I no longer have crying babies in the house, and soon my oldest will be potty trained. It sounds cliche but it is the hardest and most rewarding thing I have ever done.
    - cpayne624 7y ago
      Atwood? https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ > every week it gets a tiny bit easier This has been my experience, too. I take comfort in it (got a 5 and a 3 y/o)
      - roland35 7y ago
        It does get easier as they get more independent, I have slowly clawed back time for sleep, now slowly getting time to exercise again, soon again I will have time for some hobbies again! I do hope to have some shared hobbies with my boys though!
  - castlecrasher2 7y ago
    The negatives are bad, sure, but it's like someone complaining about how bad college was and past work experiences were; the bad usually help you to learn the good. I wouldn't trade my 4-year old son for anything in the world.
  - scruple 7y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. Every situation is unique. My wife and I have 11 week old twins. We went from 0 to 2, so we have no baseline. But, it's been a joy. Challenging? Yes. Absolutely and without a doubt the most challenging thing that I have ever done in my life. That brings about a number of rewards on it's own, even aside from the children themselves. It doesn't have to be chaos and it doesn't have to be torture. It's all fairly subjective and I don't want to type out a novel. But, I do want to give you a bit of a different perspective. I am very busy tending to these babies, keeping our home maintained, working, tending to our dogs, etc... I handle 50% of our feedings entirely by myself (feeding for us is code for: change baby, feed baby, burp baby, soothe baby, get baby onto their next activity or put down for a nap or sleep, and this is times 2 for our situation). We're walking the twins in the morning and the evening. We're bathing a baby every night, so they get a bath every other day right now. We play with them during the day and we read to them at night before bed. Yet, I slept for just under 7 hours straight last night. My wife slept for 4 hours, pumped, and then went back to sleep. She leaves me a note on the bathroom counter every night so that I know if I need to wake her up or not. I can hear that she is waking up now and so after this comment I am going to head upstairs and I'll be feeding both of the twins again by myself while she pumps and we get ready for that morning walk. I also worked out twice this week and since Sunday have gone for 2 hour-long runs. I have another run today, whenever I can find the spare hour. Another workout tomorrow. Saturday is a day off. We'll play with the twins as much as they'll have it. We don't really have any help in the house, it's overwhelmingly just my wife and I. We're making things work and things are working well. I've been told by people IRL not to say these sorts of things out loud. I've been told to "stop bragging" about how my infants sleep at night. So, personally, I've found that I don't really care to say much about it. edit/ I'd do well to note that I work full-time remote and that makes a world of difference in our outcomes. If I had to commute to an office, no doubt that I'd be exercising much less and we'd not be eating very well right now.
  - PhantomFF 7y ago
    I cant speak to having much experience with this myself as my first kid just hit 6 months. I feel like the stress is much higher than it would be without kids, but the rewards are higher as well. Managed well it can be more than worth it, but doing it when you aren't prepared makes it hurt that much more.
  - jly 7y ago
    > So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? The negatives are real but they are outweighed by overwhelming positives. In my experience, there was a new level of satisfaction achieved after becoming a father that made it worth every sacrifice.
  - CodeCube 7y ago
    Most of the others commenting here have seem to have small children, so of course their feedback is going to highlight all the ways in which their lives have changed. To offer a counter-point, my daughter is 18 and off to college (literally dropping her off this saturday), and my son is 15. With each moment that passes from the time they are born, things get easier ... sleep? improves. complete and utter dependency? they learn to wipe their own bum. So, all the things that _seem_ really bad that people are reporting here are, ultimately, rather temporary. That's not to say there aren't new challenges that come once they get older, and some challenges aren't experienced by everyone (I feel incredibly lucky and blessed that I haven't had any behavioral issues with my kids). So ... yeah ... they're not little parasites forever, just keep that in mind :P
  - Wildgoose 7y ago
    Yes, they are exaggerating the negatives - as a father of three I can honestly say that parenthood is wonderful and fulfilling. My only regret is that we didn't have a fourth child!
rgrieselhuber 7y ago
Probably one of the goals of the article. All of your ancestors to this point seemed to do just fine.
germinalphrase 7y ago
I have a six month old, so I’m still kind of transitioning. I wouldn’t have wanted to be pressured into this, but I’m also very in love with my son. My life is better with him in it even if I get bummed out about the loss of autonomy and free time.
nvarsj 7y ago
I'm a father of two, one who is nearly a teenager, so I'm still on the journey. Having children is a life experience. A hard one, that will change you. It is certainly not the easy route. If you want a life of low stress and self satisfaction - having no kids makes a lot of sense. And I'd never begrudge anyone who makes this choice (of which I know many). Choosing to have a family means you are willing to sacrifice your own goals to some extent. I think you could say the same about any relationship - you generally have to give up some of your own time and or desires to make a relationship work, whether short term or long term. Having kids is probably the most extreme version of this. What do you get out of it? Life long companionship, for one thing. And a very unique experience, that only other parents can ever understand.
- auiya 7y ago
  > What do you get out of it? Life long companionship, for one thing. Not necessarily. I know many people who have quite strained relationships with their parents/children. I have relatives who had children based on the mindset of "who will take care of me when I'm old?", only for their kids to mistreat and abandon them in their old age.
  - nvarsj 7y ago
    Well, of course. Like any relationship it can break down. I don’t have a great relationship with my father, which seems common for my generation. He spent most of his time working - not enough time with his family. Having a genuine relationship with your kids and being involved requires a lot of self sacrifice - if you don’t do that the relationship is going to be bad. Almost always that requires putting your career on the back burner which is hard for a lot of people.
senorjazz 7y ago
Father of three. Yes and no. > and if so, why? Yes. Chemical change in my brain / body causing me to love those little buggers more than life itself. No. A bit of free time and piece and quiet would be nice occasionally and to selfishly do what I want, when I want, how I want. > would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect? At the time of the first born, most definitely. But girlfriend got pregnant "fairly" young at 24. She wanted to keep it, no further discussion had. In retrospect, that is a very hard one. Very much aware of the "grass is greener" paradigm and to be "happy with what you got". But overall, I don't think I would change anything.
codingdave 7y ago
I think it was both a good idea, and at the same time the biggest cause of stress and strife in our marriage. The ups and downs of life are larger with kids. You will experience moments of profound joy, and balance them with great struggles. And at the end of it all, you have your own family to grow old with. You trade a hard youth for a better old age. Which seems to match, philosophically, with the startup idea of working hard for a few years to be in a better place when it is done. On a more pragmatic note, the idea that brains change when you have kids to make you more nurturing and empathetic sounds good for a career. It would help with communications and teamwork to be stronger in those areas.
jawilson2 7y ago
Having kids is incredible. My youngest is 6 (others are 8 and 10), and sleeps 10-11 hours now. They are already hilarious little people, and not having them in my life would be empty and unbearable. Re: "completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that" I hear the same thing here often about joining or running a startup and putting in 100+ hours per week. The only reason I regret having kids is because of the planet they will be inheriting, and all of the shit they will have to deal with.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  > Re: "completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that" I hear the same thing here often about joining or running a startup and putting in 100+ hours per week. Crucial difference is that you can (ethically) quit the startup if you decide it isn't worth it.
martythemaniak 7y ago
Imagine if you just read about the negatives of Ivy-League schools - the insane admissions process, the cost, the pressures, the depression, the sleep deprivation, the drug abuse, the suicides, etc. You'd think people must be crazy to go there, yet when you weight it against the benefits, it turns out that basically anyone that can go there, should go there. I think parenting, like school, is also a very high-effort, high-reward activity. Maybe while the negatives are easy to understand, the rewards are not so easily understood. "Give life to your offspring" just doesn't have the same ring as "make a ton of money" or "become the ruling class".
- ImprovedSilence 7y ago
  Honestly I’ve loved every second of it. Granted, Ive only got one, and she’s pretty easy going so far and never had problems sleeping the night once she was out of “needs food every 2 hr stage”. Yeah, things change, I don’t go out to the bars to socialize as much (or at all) any more. Most of my friends don’t have kids yet (but some do). Having said that, I need to constantly be “changing” or “growing” in life. There are only so many years I can go drinking with friends every weekend until it gets boring and I need a new adventure in life. I travel less too, but still made it to Europe for a week this year (with baby in tow). Your life doesn’t have to stop, but the things you do change. And yeah, I love it. I am also not usually one of the ones that bemoan all the lost sleeep or what have you in comments here. I would imagine I’m not the only one who stays positive.
gwbas1c 7y ago
Yes, but I consider children fulfillment of instinctual needs. As I've seen my grandparents age and see how my extended family works, I just can't see myself childless. If you don't want children, don't worry about it. Population increases exponentially.
- jsilence 7y ago
  "Population increases exponentially" No, it does not any more. See talks of Hans Rosling.
daddoo 7y ago
I have a 4 and 2 year old. It was the best thing to happen to me in a personal and professional sense. It is difficult. The first year is hard. It’s hard to even draw parallels to. You know how it’s like to learn to ride a bike or a new language or play a musical instrument when you’ve never played one before? It’s like that almost everyday for the first few months at least. You will be sleep deprived. You will be in auto pilot doing things you wonder how/why you did it. But the reward is amazing! You have the opportunity to do right in the world. You can raise kids that’ll add sanity to your worldview. I’m raising my kids to be empathetic and kind human beings. My older one unprompted goes to the shy kid on the playground and involves him/her. That’s so rewarding to see. He cares for his brother to the extent that he’ll ask us to go “let it go” when we try to get the younger one through his tantrum. Now, why was it the best thing to happen to me professionally? 2 things: 1. Something better be a fucking good reason for me to spend time on it. Stupid meeting? Sorry, I’m busy I’m walking out to do other work. Random chit chat in a meeting that’s running late? I’m cutting that shit down. I’ve learned to value my time like execs value their time. I’m not rude but I have become very particular. Something has to be worth my time to take me away from spending time with my kids. 2. After parenting most things feel easy to me. Exec presentation? Give me an hour. Train a new person with a bad attitude. Pfft. I can handle that without getting upset. Deal with an aggressive Engineering Manager. Yeah I got skills to calm this person down. Stand up for the quite colleague in the corner? You bet I’ve noticed it and intervened to seek their input. It has been my observation and experience that if you don’t do so patronizingly, a lot of how to talk to a child can be applied to grown ups with marvelous results. All of this though is if you’re ready for it. I knew I was when I realized I wanted to share my view of the world with someone I was caring for. Good luck!
senectus1 7y ago
yeah, they're my lasting positive impact on the world. I've raised great kids, and the world is better off for them being in it.
rubidium 7y ago
Yes it’s a great idea, and mine are still young (3, 2 and 2 months)! You learn to value, care for, and depend on others more in a way that’s hard to do otherwise. And kids are great fun. Seeing them discover new things is wonderful. Having kids is big both my wife’s and my quality world so we don’t regret it. It is really hard a lot though too. You learn to live a life of service which the world needs more of.
specialist 7y ago
If you do decide to have kids, I strongly encourage you to live near relatives. Also, join something like https://www.peps.org https://www.peps.org, a parenting organization. Having a deep bench of helpers and pre qualified play mates is crucial. It can't just be the parents vs their kids 24/7.
tathougies 7y ago
Well no.. I wanted kids as much/more than my wife. Why should I care about hormonal responses. My body is designed to get my wife pregnant and have babies. I embrace that. Whatever changes it undergoes is fine... That's the price you pay for family.
auiya 7y ago
People have a hard time admitting in retrospect they wished they didn't have kids because of biological bonding. My life would have INFINITELY less responsibilities and much more money had I not had a child. Are those things worth trading in retrospect? I don't know the answer to that because the toothpaste is already out of the tube. I'm currently middle aged, but if given the opportunity to go back in time and choose to either have kids or not, I probably would have chosen not. It's not because I don't love my kid to the moon and back, but it's a huge responsibility not many people can deal with. It's worth noting this is mindset is exacerbated by being divorced from my child's other parent, and it forces me to have to interact with a formerly abusive partner periodically.
- throwaway97533 7y ago
  What would have happened to me if I hadn't become a father? Would I have been financially a lot better off without kids to pay for, free to do whatever I want, had a lot time to myself? Maybe. On the other hand, I might not be here. Having kids was the best reason not to commit suicide I've ever had.
  - auiya 7y ago
    That's rather drastic, but I'm glad that worked out well for you. Everyone thinks prior to having kids that their kids are going to be the next Carl Sagan. Nobody ever considers that their kids might be the next Jeffery Dahmer.
jriot 7y ago
I have two kids, my wife and I never sacrificed our physical health. When our first was born I was an air traffic controller, and when my second was born I transitioned into being a data scientist. During the first 4 years of fatherhood, I did triatholons and ran ultra-marathons - primairly ultras as the crowd was far more relaxed. After our second was born I decided to take up powerlifting, worked up to a 1405 total. I've recently decided to go back to endurance events as being 230lbs of raw strength isn't conducive to life, plus our grocery bill is higher due to that. So I'm swimming and dropping weight; running at 230 (now 210) was terrible and humbling all at once. My wife did half-marathons and now does cross-fit. During these different 'eras' we exposed our children to our activities and they partook when interested, they are highly interested in riding their bikes and run as they please. Though they prefer volleyball and gymnastics at the moment. They only negative, is they can't sit for school, as school only offers one recess during the day.
outside1234 7y ago
You need to be passionate about it. If you are on the fence, in my opinion, go child free. It's better for the environment (the mountain of plastic and CO2 that having kids causes is astounding) and there are plenty of people in the world that are passionate about having kids.
- rconti 7y ago
  Thanks for the opinion. I feel the same way as the parent poster - this thread is fairly horrifying, particularly as someone who has spent the past couple of years on personal growth, particularly improving my fitness and sleep. Always been on the fence, keep hoping I want to have kids some day, because I sure don't want to go into it with a negative attitude. I don't want to "miss out" and regret having lived a childless life when I'm 70, but I sure don't want anything about that lifestyle today. My wife seems to be much the same way. We always talk about "some day, if we have kids.." but nearing our 40s, some day doesn't seem to come. I absolutely believe it must be rewarding in a way I cannot imagine -- just as most 'worthwhile' pursuits that take time and effort and learning and growth are. And precisely because the benefits are non-obvious (I don't really enjoy anything about being around children). I've found raising pets to be far more rewarding than I could have imagined, so I'm sure children must be 100 or 1000x that reward. But, just like I don't need to take on every challenge the world has to offer (someone else can die on Everest, others can become passionate about their skydiving hobby), I'll pick and choose my challenges.
  - shadowtree 7y ago
    Remember that despite all the self-improvements, you will die. Having kids gives you a chance in making a more significant impression than just exist and disappear.
    - dual_basis 7y ago
      What? In what way? Genetically? I mean, I suppose, but do you really care about that? Passing on your beliefs / values? This rarely even makes it a single generation, and why can't you do this by simply making an impression on people around you? I don't think anyone should have children because it helps them come to terms with their own mortality.
gilbetron 7y ago
I love my son more than anything, but the job of being a parent mostly sucks. I don't like it, although it's way better now that he's 10. Even though it's not for me I would 100% go through it again to have my son again. The only real concern I have about having a child is I don't know what kind of world he's entering.
crunchyfrog 7y ago
I also struggled with the decision whether to have kids. I don't generally like kids or kids stuff. I was very happy with how I spent my time. It seemed like huge sacrifice and also a leap of faith into a new life with no way back. Long story short, I did have kids and it was the right decision. And if I were able to talk to myself when I was struggling with the decision, I would say "Don't miss this experience. There is nothing else in life like it. It is hard but it is worth it."
fatnoah 7y ago
It's a great question. My son is 11. If you'd asked me when he was 3 or 4, I may have said it wasn't worth it. Now, I 100% feel it was worth it. It's a pain, forces you to change your life priorities, but overall it's made me into a better person as I try to embody the attitude and behaviors that he'll want. There's also nothing better at washing away the stresses of the day than the gigantic hug I get when I walk in the door.
isodude 7y ago
I get people who don't do it. I can't imagine a life not having kids around. If your scared how it will affect your life, maybe it isn't for you. It's not how kids work, you make it work, period. Either you do it or you don't. Whether it's a good idea is very irrelevant.
fyfy18 7y ago
My daughter is two and a half months old, and it's nowhere near as difficult as some people make out. My wife is currently studying, so is taking a year off to look after her. Plus I work from home, so can help out now and then. In terms of sleep she usually sleeps from midnight until 4-5 when she will wake up to be fed, but often I don't even wake up now (yes, she is in the same room).
Steel_Phoenix 7y ago
I was skeptical, but I'm happy with the decision. I can't cite anything for this, but I swear it rewrites your mind and body to be a more perfect parent. My own theory is that there are some kind of pheromones in baby breath that trigger something. If you have kids and spend a lot of time with them, you will be near certain to be glad you did. The biggest physical change I noticed besides some short term weight gain was a drastic improvement in my reflexes. I was happy without kids. I think what convinced me in the end to have kids is that my wife and I don't have a lot of friends or younger family members around. If I still wanted to have a family when I get older I'm going to need to make some.
dgacmu 7y ago
The book "all joy and no fun" sums things up better than I can in an HN post. Well worth a read.
dual_basis 7y ago
For me, having children was the worst decision I ever made. Since you've already identified the negatives (described in the article) I don't think I have to explain why I feel this way. If I could go back in time and tell my younger self one thing it would absolutely be "do not have children".
makeset 7y ago
I was no particular fan of children or parenting before, but eventually I decided that raising children is such a significant part of the human experience, I'd be opting out on a huge chunk of what this life has to offer. Sure, it has major downsides and risks, but is also unmatched in its potential emotional and existential rewards. Going without may be perfectly rational for a given person, but for me, the opportunity cost tradeoff weighed in favor. That said, I became a father in my 40s after having had a pretty good run already, and that's definitely not something I would do any differently. TL;DR: YOLO/FOMO.

roland35 7y ago

Having two kids myself, it has been the best thing to happen to me by far. I never really thought about having kids until my late 20's, so I can understand why people may want to go child-free. Kids are a huge investment of time and effort after all! But personally I could not imagine it any other way. Also, it is nice to have a receptive audience to dad jokes.

agent008t 7y ago
So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? Or is it more that those difficulties are fairly short-term, and in the longer run don't really matter / are forgotten? Say, like preparing for and sitting a difficult exam, or going to the dentist, etc.
- seidleroni 7y ago
  As a dad myself (2.5 yr old and an almost 1 year old), the negatives do not seem to be exaggerated at all. Going to work as a software engineer is the easiest part of my day, by far. What is not always mentioned are the wonderful parts of it, which is hard to describe. Scott Hanselman wrote something where he said that having kids is 49% awful and 51% amazing, and that 1% makes all the difference, and it really hits the nail on the head. I also think its worth putting into perspective that every week it gets a tiny bit easier. I'm happy I no longer have crying babies in the house, and soon my oldest will be potty trained. It sounds cliche but it is the hardest and most rewarding thing I have ever done.
  - cpayne624 7y ago
    Atwood? https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ > every week it gets a tiny bit easier This has been my experience, too. I take comfort in it (got a 5 and a 3 y/o)
    - roland35 7y ago
      It does get easier as they get more independent, I have slowly clawed back time for sleep, now slowly getting time to exercise again, soon again I will have time for some hobbies again! I do hope to have some shared hobbies with my boys though!
- castlecrasher2 7y ago
  The negatives are bad, sure, but it's like someone complaining about how bad college was and past work experiences were; the bad usually help you to learn the good. I wouldn't trade my 4-year old son for anything in the world.
- scruple 7y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. Every situation is unique. My wife and I have 11 week old twins. We went from 0 to 2, so we have no baseline. But, it's been a joy. Challenging? Yes. Absolutely and without a doubt the most challenging thing that I have ever done in my life. That brings about a number of rewards on it's own, even aside from the children themselves. It doesn't have to be chaos and it doesn't have to be torture. It's all fairly subjective and I don't want to type out a novel. But, I do want to give you a bit of a different perspective. I am very busy tending to these babies, keeping our home maintained, working, tending to our dogs, etc... I handle 50% of our feedings entirely by myself (feeding for us is code for: change baby, feed baby, burp baby, soothe baby, get baby onto their next activity or put down for a nap or sleep, and this is times 2 for our situation). We're walking the twins in the morning and the evening. We're bathing a baby every night, so they get a bath every other day right now. We play with them during the day and we read to them at night before bed. Yet, I slept for just under 7 hours straight last night. My wife slept for 4 hours, pumped, and then went back to sleep. She leaves me a note on the bathroom counter every night so that I know if I need to wake her up or not. I can hear that she is waking up now and so after this comment I am going to head upstairs and I'll be feeding both of the twins again by myself while she pumps and we get ready for that morning walk. I also worked out twice this week and since Sunday have gone for 2 hour-long runs. I have another run today, whenever I can find the spare hour. Another workout tomorrow. Saturday is a day off. We'll play with the twins as much as they'll have it. We don't really have any help in the house, it's overwhelmingly just my wife and I. We're making things work and things are working well. I've been told by people IRL not to say these sorts of things out loud. I've been told to "stop bragging" about how my infants sleep at night. So, personally, I've found that I don't really care to say much about it. edit/ I'd do well to note that I work full-time remote and that makes a world of difference in our outcomes. If I had to commute to an office, no doubt that I'd be exercising much less and we'd not be eating very well right now.
- PhantomFF 7y ago
  I cant speak to having much experience with this myself as my first kid just hit 6 months. I feel like the stress is much higher than it would be without kids, but the rewards are higher as well. Managed well it can be more than worth it, but doing it when you aren't prepared makes it hurt that much more.
- jly 7y ago
  > So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? The negatives are real but they are outweighed by overwhelming positives. In my experience, there was a new level of satisfaction achieved after becoming a father that made it worth every sacrifice.
- CodeCube 7y ago
  Most of the others commenting here have seem to have small children, so of course their feedback is going to highlight all the ways in which their lives have changed. To offer a counter-point, my daughter is 18 and off to college (literally dropping her off this saturday), and my son is 15. With each moment that passes from the time they are born, things get easier ... sleep? improves. complete and utter dependency? they learn to wipe their own bum. So, all the things that _seem_ really bad that people are reporting here are, ultimately, rather temporary. That's not to say there aren't new challenges that come once they get older, and some challenges aren't experienced by everyone (I feel incredibly lucky and blessed that I haven't had any behavioral issues with my kids). So ... yeah ... they're not little parasites forever, just keep that in mind :P
- Wildgoose 7y ago
  Yes, they are exaggerating the negatives - as a father of three I can honestly say that parenthood is wonderful and fulfilling. My only regret is that we didn't have a fourth child!

rgrieselhuber 7y ago

Probably one of the goals of the article. All of your ancestors to this point seemed to do just fine.

germinalphrase 7y ago

I have a six month old, so I’m still kind of transitioning. I wouldn’t have wanted to be pressured into this, but I’m also very in love with my son. My life is better with him in it even if I get bummed out about the loss of autonomy and free time.

nvarsj 7y ago

I'm a father of two, one who is nearly a teenager, so I'm still on the journey. Having children is a life experience. A hard one, that will change you. It is certainly not the easy route. If you want a life of low stress and self satisfaction - having no kids makes a lot of sense. And I'd never begrudge anyone who makes this choice (of which I know many). Choosing to have a family means you are willing to sacrifice your own goals to some extent. I think you could say the same about any relationship - you generally have to give up some of your own time and or desires to make a relationship work, whether short term or long term. Having kids is probably the most extreme version of this. What do you get out of it? Life long companionship, for one thing. And a very unique experience, that only other parents can ever understand.

auiya 7y ago
> What do you get out of it? Life long companionship, for one thing. Not necessarily. I know many people who have quite strained relationships with their parents/children. I have relatives who had children based on the mindset of "who will take care of me when I'm old?", only for their kids to mistreat and abandon them in their old age.
- nvarsj 7y ago
  Well, of course. Like any relationship it can break down. I don’t have a great relationship with my father, which seems common for my generation. He spent most of his time working - not enough time with his family. Having a genuine relationship with your kids and being involved requires a lot of self sacrifice - if you don’t do that the relationship is going to be bad. Almost always that requires putting your career on the back burner which is hard for a lot of people.

senorjazz 7y ago

Father of three. Yes and no. > and if so, why? Yes. Chemical change in my brain / body causing me to love those little buggers more than life itself. No. A bit of free time and piece and quiet would be nice occasionally and to selfishly do what I want, when I want, how I want. > would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect? At the time of the first born, most definitely. But girlfriend got pregnant "fairly" young at 24. She wanted to keep it, no further discussion had. In retrospect, that is a very hard one. Very much aware of the "grass is greener" paradigm and to be "happy with what you got". But overall, I don't think I would change anything.

codingdave 7y ago

I think it was both a good idea, and at the same time the biggest cause of stress and strife in our marriage. The ups and downs of life are larger with kids. You will experience moments of profound joy, and balance them with great struggles. And at the end of it all, you have your own family to grow old with. You trade a hard youth for a better old age. Which seems to match, philosophically, with the startup idea of working hard for a few years to be in a better place when it is done. On a more pragmatic note, the idea that brains change when you have kids to make you more nurturing and empathetic sounds good for a career. It would help with communications and teamwork to be stronger in those areas.

jawilson2 7y ago

Having kids is incredible. My youngest is 6 (others are 8 and 10), and sleeps 10-11 hours now. They are already hilarious little people, and not having them in my life would be empty and unbearable. Re: "completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that" I hear the same thing here often about joining or running a startup and putting in 100+ hours per week. The only reason I regret having kids is because of the planet they will be inheriting, and all of the shit they will have to deal with.

balfirevic 7y ago
> Re: "completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that" I hear the same thing here often about joining or running a startup and putting in 100+ hours per week. Crucial difference is that you can (ethically) quit the startup if you decide it isn't worth it.

martythemaniak 7y ago

Imagine if you just read about the negatives of Ivy-League schools - the insane admissions process, the cost, the pressures, the depression, the sleep deprivation, the drug abuse, the suicides, etc. You'd think people must be crazy to go there, yet when you weight it against the benefits, it turns out that basically anyone that can go there, should go there. I think parenting, like school, is also a very high-effort, high-reward activity. Maybe while the negatives are easy to understand, the rewards are not so easily understood. "Give life to your offspring" just doesn't have the same ring as "make a ton of money" or "become the ruling class".

ImprovedSilence 7y ago
Honestly I’ve loved every second of it. Granted, Ive only got one, and she’s pretty easy going so far and never had problems sleeping the night once she was out of “needs food every 2 hr stage”. Yeah, things change, I don’t go out to the bars to socialize as much (or at all) any more. Most of my friends don’t have kids yet (but some do). Having said that, I need to constantly be “changing” or “growing” in life. There are only so many years I can go drinking with friends every weekend until it gets boring and I need a new adventure in life. I travel less too, but still made it to Europe for a week this year (with baby in tow). Your life doesn’t have to stop, but the things you do change. And yeah, I love it. I am also not usually one of the ones that bemoan all the lost sleeep or what have you in comments here. I would imagine I’m not the only one who stays positive.

gwbas1c 7y ago

Yes, but I consider children fulfillment of instinctual needs. As I've seen my grandparents age and see how my extended family works, I just can't see myself childless. If you don't want children, don't worry about it. Population increases exponentially.

jsilence 7y ago
"Population increases exponentially" No, it does not any more. See talks of Hans Rosling.

daddoo 7y ago

I have a 4 and 2 year old. It was the best thing to happen to me in a personal and professional sense. It is difficult. The first year is hard. It’s hard to even draw parallels to. You know how it’s like to learn to ride a bike or a new language or play a musical instrument when you’ve never played one before? It’s like that almost everyday for the first few months at least. You will be sleep deprived. You will be in auto pilot doing things you wonder how/why you did it. But the reward is amazing! You have the opportunity to do right in the world. You can raise kids that’ll add sanity to your worldview. I’m raising my kids to be empathetic and kind human beings. My older one unprompted goes to the shy kid on the playground and involves him/her. That’s so rewarding to see. He cares for his brother to the extent that he’ll ask us to go “let it go” when we try to get the younger one through his tantrum. Now, why was it the best thing to happen to me professionally? 2 things: 1. Something better be a fucking good reason for me to spend time on it. Stupid meeting? Sorry, I’m busy I’m walking out to do other work. Random chit chat in a meeting that’s running late? I’m cutting that shit down. I’ve learned to value my time like execs value their time. I’m not rude but I have become very particular. Something has to be worth my time to take me away from spending time with my kids. 2. After parenting most things feel easy to me. Exec presentation? Give me an hour. Train a new person with a bad attitude. Pfft. I can handle that without getting upset. Deal with an aggressive Engineering Manager. Yeah I got skills to calm this person down. Stand up for the quite colleague in the corner? You bet I’ve noticed it and intervened to seek their input. It has been my observation and experience that if you don’t do so patronizingly, a lot of how to talk to a child can be applied to grown ups with marvelous results. All of this though is if you’re ready for it. I knew I was when I realized I wanted to share my view of the world with someone I was caring for. Good luck!

senectus1 7y ago

yeah, they're my lasting positive impact on the world. I've raised great kids, and the world is better off for them being in it.

rubidium 7y ago

Yes it’s a great idea, and mine are still young (3, 2 and 2 months)! You learn to value, care for, and depend on others more in a way that’s hard to do otherwise. And kids are great fun. Seeing them discover new things is wonderful. Having kids is big both my wife’s and my quality world so we don’t regret it. It is really hard a lot though too. You learn to live a life of service which the world needs more of.

specialist 7y ago

If you do decide to have kids, I strongly encourage you to live near relatives. Also, join something like https://www.peps.org https://www.peps.org, a parenting organization. Having a deep bench of helpers and pre qualified play mates is crucial. It can't just be the parents vs their kids 24/7.

tathougies 7y ago

Well no.. I wanted kids as much/more than my wife. Why should I care about hormonal responses. My body is designed to get my wife pregnant and have babies. I embrace that. Whatever changes it undergoes is fine... That's the price you pay for family.

auiya 7y ago

People have a hard time admitting in retrospect they wished they didn't have kids because of biological bonding. My life would have INFINITELY less responsibilities and much more money had I not had a child. Are those things worth trading in retrospect? I don't know the answer to that because the toothpaste is already out of the tube. I'm currently middle aged, but if given the opportunity to go back in time and choose to either have kids or not, I probably would have chosen not. It's not because I don't love my kid to the moon and back, but it's a huge responsibility not many people can deal with. It's worth noting this is mindset is exacerbated by being divorced from my child's other parent, and it forces me to have to interact with a formerly abusive partner periodically.

throwaway97533 7y ago
What would have happened to me if I hadn't become a father? Would I have been financially a lot better off without kids to pay for, free to do whatever I want, had a lot time to myself? Maybe. On the other hand, I might not be here. Having kids was the best reason not to commit suicide I've ever had.
- auiya 7y ago
  That's rather drastic, but I'm glad that worked out well for you. Everyone thinks prior to having kids that their kids are going to be the next Carl Sagan. Nobody ever considers that their kids might be the next Jeffery Dahmer.

jriot 7y ago

I have two kids, my wife and I never sacrificed our physical health. When our first was born I was an air traffic controller, and when my second was born I transitioned into being a data scientist. During the first 4 years of fatherhood, I did triatholons and ran ultra-marathons - primairly ultras as the crowd was far more relaxed. After our second was born I decided to take up powerlifting, worked up to a 1405 total. I've recently decided to go back to endurance events as being 230lbs of raw strength isn't conducive to life, plus our grocery bill is higher due to that. So I'm swimming and dropping weight; running at 230 (now 210) was terrible and humbling all at once. My wife did half-marathons and now does cross-fit. During these different 'eras' we exposed our children to our activities and they partook when interested, they are highly interested in riding their bikes and run as they please. Though they prefer volleyball and gymnastics at the moment. They only negative, is they can't sit for school, as school only offers one recess during the day.

outside1234 7y ago

You need to be passionate about it. If you are on the fence, in my opinion, go child free. It's better for the environment (the mountain of plastic and CO2 that having kids causes is astounding) and there are plenty of people in the world that are passionate about having kids.

rconti 7y ago
Thanks for the opinion. I feel the same way as the parent poster - this thread is fairly horrifying, particularly as someone who has spent the past couple of years on personal growth, particularly improving my fitness and sleep. Always been on the fence, keep hoping I want to have kids some day, because I sure don't want to go into it with a negative attitude. I don't want to "miss out" and regret having lived a childless life when I'm 70, but I sure don't want anything about that lifestyle today. My wife seems to be much the same way. We always talk about "some day, if we have kids.." but nearing our 40s, some day doesn't seem to come. I absolutely believe it must be rewarding in a way I cannot imagine -- just as most 'worthwhile' pursuits that take time and effort and learning and growth are. And precisely because the benefits are non-obvious (I don't really enjoy anything about being around children). I've found raising pets to be far more rewarding than I could have imagined, so I'm sure children must be 100 or 1000x that reward. But, just like I don't need to take on every challenge the world has to offer (someone else can die on Everest, others can become passionate about their skydiving hobby), I'll pick and choose my challenges.
- shadowtree 7y ago
  Remember that despite all the self-improvements, you will die. Having kids gives you a chance in making a more significant impression than just exist and disappear.
  - dual_basis 7y ago
    What? In what way? Genetically? I mean, I suppose, but do you really care about that? Passing on your beliefs / values? This rarely even makes it a single generation, and why can't you do this by simply making an impression on people around you? I don't think anyone should have children because it helps them come to terms with their own mortality.

gilbetron 7y ago

I love my son more than anything, but the job of being a parent mostly sucks. I don't like it, although it's way better now that he's 10. Even though it's not for me I would 100% go through it again to have my son again. The only real concern I have about having a child is I don't know what kind of world he's entering.

crunchyfrog 7y ago

I also struggled with the decision whether to have kids. I don't generally like kids or kids stuff. I was very happy with how I spent my time. It seemed like huge sacrifice and also a leap of faith into a new life with no way back. Long story short, I did have kids and it was the right decision. And if I were able to talk to myself when I was struggling with the decision, I would say "Don't miss this experience. There is nothing else in life like it. It is hard but it is worth it."

fatnoah 7y ago

It's a great question. My son is 11. If you'd asked me when he was 3 or 4, I may have said it wasn't worth it. Now, I 100% feel it was worth it. It's a pain, forces you to change your life priorities, but overall it's made me into a better person as I try to embody the attitude and behaviors that he'll want. There's also nothing better at washing away the stresses of the day than the gigantic hug I get when I walk in the door.

isodude 7y ago

I get people who don't do it. I can't imagine a life not having kids around. If your scared how it will affect your life, maybe it isn't for you. It's not how kids work, you make it work, period. Either you do it or you don't. Whether it's a good idea is very irrelevant.

fyfy18 7y ago

My daughter is two and a half months old, and it's nowhere near as difficult as some people make out. My wife is currently studying, so is taking a year off to look after her. Plus I work from home, so can help out now and then. In terms of sleep she usually sleeps from midnight until 4-5 when she will wake up to be fed, but often I don't even wake up now (yes, she is in the same room).

Steel_Phoenix 7y ago

I was skeptical, but I'm happy with the decision. I can't cite anything for this, but I swear it rewrites your mind and body to be a more perfect parent. My own theory is that there are some kind of pheromones in baby breath that trigger something. If you have kids and spend a lot of time with them, you will be near certain to be glad you did. The biggest physical change I noticed besides some short term weight gain was a drastic improvement in my reflexes. I was happy without kids. I think what convinced me in the end to have kids is that my wife and I don't have a lot of friends or younger family members around. If I still wanted to have a family when I get older I'm going to need to make some.

dgacmu 7y ago

The book "all joy and no fun" sums things up better than I can in an HN post. Well worth a read.

dual_basis 7y ago

For me, having children was the worst decision I ever made. Since you've already identified the negatives (described in the article) I don't think I have to explain why I feel this way. If I could go back in time and tell my younger self one thing it would absolutely be "do not have children".

makeset 7y ago

I was no particular fan of children or parenting before, but eventually I decided that raising children is such a significant part of the human experience, I'd be opting out on a huge chunk of what this life has to offer. Sure, it has major downsides and risks, but is also unmatched in its potential emotional and existential rewards. Going without may be perfectly rational for a given person, but for me, the opportunity cost tradeoff weighed in favor. That said, I became a father in my 40s after having had a pretty good run already, and that's definitely not something I would do any differently. TL;DR: YOLO/FOMO.