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Its always fascinated me how the US Army is involved in civilian engineering projects. I remember when I was in DC back in 2012 after the earthquake damaged the

Its always fascinated me how the US Army is involved in civilian engineering projects. I remember when I was in DC back in 2012 after the earthquake damaged the Washington needle, the US Army engineers had all their branding up around the repair site. Or when I was just outside of Seattle, the engineers were managing forest land and putting a new road in. In the UK I don't think the REME or Royal Corps of Engineers have ever done or managed civilian projects. Anyone able to explain why, is it a federal government thing?

billyhoffman 7y ago
I’m not a lawyer or a constitutional scholar but I believe this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigable_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigable_servitude In the US navigable waterways (rivers etc) are controlled by the federal government. It’s in the commerce clause. There’s also probably a reason for this related to the federal government’s role in resolving disputes between states and rivers flowing among and through multiple states. Since it controls rivers, the government is also responsible for guarding against flooding, etc. from this stems the Hoover Dam, the Tennessee Valley Authority (damming and electrification of the south), etc
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cbm-vic-20 7y ago
  Another result of this is that the Army Corps of Engineers maintains some pretty nice recreational facilities along the waterways they manage. For example: https://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Missions/Recreation/ https://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Missions/Recreation/
- metaobject 7y ago
  IIRC, the US Army Corps of Engineers also built/repaired the levees in New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  But why are soldiers doing it? The IRS is also a federal government thing but it's not run by soldiers.
  - testvox 7y ago
    They are not all soldiers, the corps has considerable civilian staff as well. But the reason is mostly historical. The corps existed first to build and maintain coastal fortifications and then when the western frontier opened up it made sense to assign them to secure the rivers and improve the waterways west (the western expansion was as much a military operation against the native peoples as it was a civilian migration).
  - rando444 7y ago
    The criminal division of the IRS is most certainly armed, as well as equipped with AR-15s, and are trained by Army Special Forces contractors.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      Huh? That doesn't make them soldiers. Police are armed as well but they're not soldiers. Civilian contractors aren’t soldiers either.
      - madOnna79 7y ago
        We are living in a material (12,7mm or 14,5mm) world, and I'm am amma tear y'all girl Don't substitute civil rights for anti-panzer armor. It's a war out there, and it's getting swattingly nearer every day. Don't underestimate an IP telephone swat call for your beloved reality. There's a swatter in all of US (not me but "them", as we say.) It's a sick world, I can concur, but, this is the world we live in. I do not endorse it. It's sick as hell. When even 12,7mm is small peanuts. It's swatty man. And it's on your streets. Let's make america great again
- RonaldSchleifer 7y ago
  Although this is seemingly only my own belief, I get the sense that the difference between how those things are handled even between the USA and in general how that relationship exists in Europe, is the strong emphasis of separation of powers that was constituted in the US's fundamental governing premise. In Europe, generally speaking the government is largely dominated by the legislative today (whereas it was dominated by the aristocracy prior to WWI, generally). In the USA, the Constitution explicitly separates the Legislative of making the rules/laws; and the Executive, the enactment of the rules/laws ... the rule making and the acting body of the government. That is a notable difference from Europe where the lines are not drawn as clearly and the military, the body generally charged with security the health of the society, is subsumed and subjugated to the legislative, not at all on equal corollary to the government bureaucracy the way that it stands in the USA, where the military is not a body under the legislative the way it generally is in Europe, but rather an equal part to the Executive, acting body. It's quite a nice balance actually in terms of preventing military control, while also not suppressing the self-preservation requirements of a healthy society the way that has been done in Europe, largely intentionally. It's a larger topic in and of itself, but the artificial suppression of both military and social self-preservation in Europe was very much the reason that the USA (mostly) has been serving as a kind of paternalistic helicopter parent over Europe, because the transatlantic aristocracy has intentionally and artificially suppressed Europe's health, immune system, and therefore basic human self-preservation instincts. It's a great tragedy actually, and may one day be recognized as the great atrocity it is, a kind of national Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, which will only result in Europe suffering the invariable grave consequences from such actions, be it total vanquishment, conquest, and occupation of their societies by foreigners in a kind of civilizational implosion we only know from the history books, or some other erratic outcome from a backlash against actions that have very much predictable equal and opposite reactions.
KineticLensman 7y ago
UK Army engineers have generic responsibility to provide Military Assistance to the Civil Authority (e.g. building emergency bridges after a flood) but are not funded or resourced to conduct general civil engineering. REME are focussed on maintaining the Army’s vehicle fleet.
ohaideredevs 7y ago
I can think of two unofficial reasons: 1. Keep their skills up. 2. Avoid waste of available resources.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  I thought the US had extremely strong constitutional rules about not using the military on the US mainland?
  - ohaideredevs 7y ago
    Whatever the rules are, I am guessing they are relaxed around civil operations. Pararescuemen (USAF PJs) were deployed for search& rescue during hurricane relief operations. More if you want to dig into it: https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/1645682/military-aids-disaster-response-effort-in-the-aftermath-of-hurricane-florence/ https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/164568...
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    We have Army National Guard that are often deployed during weather emergencies.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      National guard are state resources whenever the feds aren't using them.
  - swebs 7y ago
    I don't see any mention of that https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcri...
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      I think it's called the Posse Comitatus act or something like that.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
The Royal Engineers designed, but did not build, the Royal Albert Hall. They've built a fair number of sea defences in Britain and around the world, though none in recent times. Back in colonial times they built much infrastructure, including administrative buildings, irrigation, dams and canals in a number of places, probably most in India and Canada. There's also the Ordnance Survey that came out of the RE and surveyed a good part of the globe. There's trig points all over the planet.
inscionent 7y ago
"the Washington needle' I'll have to start calling it that. You confused me because you reference Washington, DC and Seattle, Washington; which has the Space Needle. The USACE completed the original work on the Washington Monument so it makes sense that they would help with the repairs. The US government is a patch work agencies that have historically been used to funnel federal money into state and local projects. Trying to understand the 'reason' an agency does something is usually a maddening history lesson in bureaucracy.
- mothsonasloth 7y ago
  Apologies I am a Brit, how about Obelisk instead? :)
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    Maybe the name? (Washington Monument) Or we could start calling Buckingham Palace the Fancy Queen House. :-)
throwaway_law 7y ago
Like all other things US military...money. It allows the Generals to ask for bigger budgets and allows Congress to ask for more money for their States. For a State there is nothing like having a military base and/or military run projects to boost the coffers. Edit: Notwithstanding downvotes, The President’s Budget for Fiscal Year 2020 (FY 2020) includes $4.827 billion in gross discretionary funding for the Civil Works program of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Article: The Army Corps of Engineers Excels at Wasting Money (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/03/27/the-army-corps-of-engineers-excels-at-wasting-money https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2...)

billyhoffman 7y ago

I’m not a lawyer or a constitutional scholar but I believe this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigable_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigable_servitude In the US navigable waterways (rivers etc) are controlled by the federal government. It’s in the commerce clause. There’s also probably a reason for this related to the federal government’s role in resolving disputes between states and rivers flowing among and through multiple states. Since it controls rivers, the government is also responsible for guarding against flooding, etc. from this stems the Hoover Dam, the Tennessee Valley Authority (damming and electrification of the south), etc

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cbm-vic-20 7y ago
Another result of this is that the Army Corps of Engineers maintains some pretty nice recreational facilities along the waterways they manage. For example: https://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Missions/Recreation/ https://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Missions/Recreation/
metaobject 7y ago
IIRC, the US Army Corps of Engineers also built/repaired the levees in New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
chrisseaton 7y ago
But why are soldiers doing it? The IRS is also a federal government thing but it's not run by soldiers.
- testvox 7y ago
  They are not all soldiers, the corps has considerable civilian staff as well. But the reason is mostly historical. The corps existed first to build and maintain coastal fortifications and then when the western frontier opened up it made sense to assign them to secure the rivers and improve the waterways west (the western expansion was as much a military operation against the native peoples as it was a civilian migration).
- rando444 7y ago
  The criminal division of the IRS is most certainly armed, as well as equipped with AR-15s, and are trained by Army Special Forces contractors.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Huh? That doesn't make them soldiers. Police are armed as well but they're not soldiers. Civilian contractors aren’t soldiers either.
    - madOnna79 7y ago
      We are living in a material (12,7mm or 14,5mm) world, and I'm am amma tear y'all girl Don't substitute civil rights for anti-panzer armor. It's a war out there, and it's getting swattingly nearer every day. Don't underestimate an IP telephone swat call for your beloved reality. There's a swatter in all of US (not me but "them", as we say.) It's a sick world, I can concur, but, this is the world we live in. I do not endorse it. It's sick as hell. When even 12,7mm is small peanuts. It's swatty man. And it's on your streets. Let's make america great again
RonaldSchleifer 7y ago
Although this is seemingly only my own belief, I get the sense that the difference between how those things are handled even between the USA and in general how that relationship exists in Europe, is the strong emphasis of separation of powers that was constituted in the US's fundamental governing premise. In Europe, generally speaking the government is largely dominated by the legislative today (whereas it was dominated by the aristocracy prior to WWI, generally). In the USA, the Constitution explicitly separates the Legislative of making the rules/laws; and the Executive, the enactment of the rules/laws ... the rule making and the acting body of the government. That is a notable difference from Europe where the lines are not drawn as clearly and the military, the body generally charged with security the health of the society, is subsumed and subjugated to the legislative, not at all on equal corollary to the government bureaucracy the way that it stands in the USA, where the military is not a body under the legislative the way it generally is in Europe, but rather an equal part to the Executive, acting body. It's quite a nice balance actually in terms of preventing military control, while also not suppressing the self-preservation requirements of a healthy society the way that has been done in Europe, largely intentionally. It's a larger topic in and of itself, but the artificial suppression of both military and social self-preservation in Europe was very much the reason that the USA (mostly) has been serving as a kind of paternalistic helicopter parent over Europe, because the transatlantic aristocracy has intentionally and artificially suppressed Europe's health, immune system, and therefore basic human self-preservation instincts. It's a great tragedy actually, and may one day be recognized as the great atrocity it is, a kind of national Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, which will only result in Europe suffering the invariable grave consequences from such actions, be it total vanquishment, conquest, and occupation of their societies by foreigners in a kind of civilizational implosion we only know from the history books, or some other erratic outcome from a backlash against actions that have very much predictable equal and opposite reactions.

KineticLensman 7y ago

UK Army engineers have generic responsibility to provide Military Assistance to the Civil Authority (e.g. building emergency bridges after a flood) but are not funded or resourced to conduct general civil engineering. REME are focussed on maintaining the Army’s vehicle fleet.

ohaideredevs 7y ago

I can think of two unofficial reasons: 1. Keep their skills up. 2. Avoid waste of available resources.

chrisseaton 7y ago
I thought the US had extremely strong constitutional rules about not using the military on the US mainland?
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  Whatever the rules are, I am guessing they are relaxed around civil operations. Pararescuemen (USAF PJs) were deployed for search& rescue during hurricane relief operations. More if you want to dig into it: https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/1645682/military-aids-disaster-response-effort-in-the-aftermath-of-hurricane-florence/ https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/164568...
- chrisco255 7y ago
  We have Army National Guard that are often deployed during weather emergencies.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    National guard are state resources whenever the feds aren't using them.
- swebs 7y ago
  I don't see any mention of that https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcri...
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    I think it's called the Posse Comitatus act or something like that.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

The Royal Engineers designed, but did not build, the Royal Albert Hall. They've built a fair number of sea defences in Britain and around the world, though none in recent times. Back in colonial times they built much infrastructure, including administrative buildings, irrigation, dams and canals in a number of places, probably most in India and Canada. There's also the Ordnance Survey that came out of the RE and surveyed a good part of the globe. There's trig points all over the planet.

inscionent 7y ago

"the Washington needle' I'll have to start calling it that. You confused me because you reference Washington, DC and Seattle, Washington; which has the Space Needle. The USACE completed the original work on the Washington Monument so it makes sense that they would help with the repairs. The US government is a patch work agencies that have historically been used to funnel federal money into state and local projects. Trying to understand the 'reason' an agency does something is usually a maddening history lesson in bureaucracy.

mothsonasloth 7y ago
Apologies I am a Brit, how about Obelisk instead? :)
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Maybe the name? (Washington Monument) Or we could start calling Buckingham Palace the Fancy Queen House. :-)

throwaway_law 7y ago

Like all other things US military...money. It allows the Generals to ask for bigger budgets and allows Congress to ask for more money for their States. For a State there is nothing like having a military base and/or military run projects to boost the coffers. Edit: Notwithstanding downvotes, The President’s Budget for Fiscal Year 2020 (FY 2020) includes $4.827 billion in gross discretionary funding for the Civil Works program of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Article: The Army Corps of Engineers Excels at Wasting Money (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/03/27/the-army-corps-of-engineers-excels-at-wasting-money https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2...)