4 ms·

The people hit hardest by this are women. Society places much, much higher expectations on the wrt motherhood than it does for fathers. I know a huge number of

The people hit hardest by this are women. Society places much, much higher expectations on the wrt motherhood than it does for fathers. I know a huge number of women who love their kids but deeply mourn their lost independence and career opportunity they might have had without them, to say nothing of the profound physical impact of carrying a pregnancy. Women understand these issues really well, they just don’t feel comfortable talking about them with many men.

belorn 7y ago
That is a very simplistic view of the issue. Just as society places much higher expectation that mothers will take care the child, society also places a much higher expectation that fathers will continue to go to work. Fathers with interrupted 5hrs of combined sleep are expected to do the exact same workload and work performance as they did had when they got uninterrupted 8 or 9hrs of sleep. Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this. There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work.
- stephencanon 7y ago
  > There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work. Yes, but that’s not what grandparent was talking about. They were writing specifically about the expectation that parents unconditionally think their children are the best thing that ever happened to them. The burden of this specific expectation falls much more heavily on mothers.
  - kareemm 7y ago
    You’re cherry picking and responding to the example. The broader point is this, and in my experience as a (male) parent it’s true: > Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this.
geggam 7y ago
Many women I know wish society wouldnt pressure them to work so they could stay home and be a mother. The current economic situation in the US is prohibitive to this family structure as well. The combination of those two things is a huge problem in our society.
- magduf 7y ago
  A lot of this is stuff Americans have done to themselves. They all want a huge house in the suburbs with two huge gas-guzzling SUVs in the garage, so that necessitates both parents working to pay for all this largesse. If Americans lived in dense cities with small living quarters and took public transit to work, they wouldn't need to spend so much money on housing and transportation, and they wouldn't feel the need to women to work full-time to keep up this lavish and unsustainable lifestyle.
  - curioussavage 7y ago
    This is a silly generalization. Also my suburb I just moved to is way cheaper than dense city living and much less stressful. No gas guzzling.
  - jkepler 7y ago
    I agree that lifestyle choices often require both spouses to work. However, it's not simply due to suburban American 'largesse'. I know plenty of people who live in France in comparatively tiny apartments or homes, who still feel the need for both spouses to work to make ends meet. The frugal living needed to be a stay-at-home mom or dad tends to be rare regardless of location, but it's not impossible.
    - magduf 7y ago
      >I know plenty of people who live in France in comparatively tiny apartments or homes, who still feel the need for both spouses to work to make ends meet. What kinds of careers do these people have? If they both have low-paying jobs, then that's unfortunately understandable. But the McMansion-and-2-SUV-owning Americans I derided earlier aren't people with low-paying jobs, those are people with high-paying jobs who frequently refuse to live below their means; if they lived in a small condo or townhouse and got efficient cars their living costs would be a fraction of what they pay now, and wouldn't need to work so much. Even in Europe, lots of people have luxuries they don't really need, especially cars. Sure, people in towns, or who have jobs away from the train lines might feel the need to have a car, but there's plenty of people there who live in the city, where public transit is excellent, and they still have (frequently expensive) cars. It isn't just Americans who make lifestyle choices that require dual earners, but we epitomize it.

belorn 7y ago

That is a very simplistic view of the issue. Just as society places much higher expectation that mothers will take care the child, society also places a much higher expectation that fathers will continue to go to work. Fathers with interrupted 5hrs of combined sleep are expected to do the exact same workload and work performance as they did had when they got uninterrupted 8 or 9hrs of sleep. Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this. There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work.

stephencanon 7y ago
> There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work. Yes, but that’s not what grandparent was talking about. They were writing specifically about the expectation that parents unconditionally think their children are the best thing that ever happened to them. The burden of this specific expectation falls much more heavily on mothers.
- kareemm 7y ago
  You’re cherry picking and responding to the example. The broader point is this, and in my experience as a (male) parent it’s true: > Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this.

geggam 7y ago

Many women I know wish society wouldnt pressure them to work so they could stay home and be a mother. The current economic situation in the US is prohibitive to this family structure as well. The combination of those two things is a huge problem in our society.

magduf 7y ago
A lot of this is stuff Americans have done to themselves. They all want a huge house in the suburbs with two huge gas-guzzling SUVs in the garage, so that necessitates both parents working to pay for all this largesse. If Americans lived in dense cities with small living quarters and took public transit to work, they wouldn't need to spend so much money on housing and transportation, and they wouldn't feel the need to women to work full-time to keep up this lavish and unsustainable lifestyle.
- curioussavage 7y ago
  This is a silly generalization. Also my suburb I just moved to is way cheaper than dense city living and much less stressful. No gas guzzling.
- jkepler 7y ago
  I agree that lifestyle choices often require both spouses to work. However, it's not simply due to suburban American 'largesse'. I know plenty of people who live in France in comparatively tiny apartments or homes, who still feel the need for both spouses to work to make ends meet. The frugal living needed to be a stay-at-home mom or dad tends to be rare regardless of location, but it's not impossible.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >I know plenty of people who live in France in comparatively tiny apartments or homes, who still feel the need for both spouses to work to make ends meet. What kinds of careers do these people have? If they both have low-paying jobs, then that's unfortunately understandable. But the McMansion-and-2-SUV-owning Americans I derided earlier aren't people with low-paying jobs, those are people with high-paying jobs who frequently refuse to live below their means; if they lived in a small condo or townhouse and got efficient cars their living costs would be a fraction of what they pay now, and wouldn't need to work so much. Even in Europe, lots of people have luxuries they don't really need, especially cars. Sure, people in towns, or who have jobs away from the train lines might feel the need to have a car, but there's plenty of people there who live in the city, where public transit is excellent, and they still have (frequently expensive) cars. It isn't just Americans who make lifestyle choices that require dual earners, but we epitomize it.