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> Expensive medical treatments Again. Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. It is expensive, but it's a shared cost that benefits everybody. > Maybe

> Expensive medical treatments Again. Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. It is expensive, but it's a shared cost that benefits everybody. > Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future Maybe, but back then they didn't have the means to care for more than a few days at a time, to think about the future. If they could have done it, they would have done it.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
I guess my comment was specific to the US, but pay in the medical field is vastly lower in Europe than in the US. Regardless, Europe is still subject to the biggest factor, which are demographic changes and they will have an impact on the availability of future benefits. I would say these past 20 years and maybe next 10 will have been the peak, and then there will be visible cuts in services or quality of services due to lack of people (and/or taxes) to service the debt.
Pungsnigel 7y ago
It's not by any means solved in Europe. // Swede
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Compared to the system in the US it is. How did one researcher put it? "Every healthcare system has its flaws, but the US somehow manages to have all of them."
- elindbe2 7y ago
  Compared to the US it is. Obviously there are going to be ongoing problems in any large undertaking, but Sweden pays half the cost for healthcare per capita. A 50% discount for equal quality care. Americans like myself are getting absolutely screwed in terms of the cost of healthcare.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  Well, you're right! It's not entirely solved yet, we still have to die sometimes...
ernst_klim 7y ago
> Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. As a person which lives in Russia and Germany, I'm really interested in what you mean by solved? Universal healthcare in Russia is a total mess. Universal healthcare (edit: in Germany) have a lot of problems too, of which the most significant is underpayment, low salaries, and such a lack of personnel, that CDU people did really suggest to use conscription to draw the free workforce. The very flaw of positive rights is that you can't guarantee them, since they cost money. If you have no money, your positive rights end there. Yet people still believe that one could guarantee such rights.
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  I am Russian, and Russia is a total mess, full stop. To address positive rights - societies don't just "run out" of money. As has been repeated a million times, a country with a sovereign currency is not run like a household budget. And the "right to clean water" is rather useful in making sure we don't have outbreaks of the plague and other fun stuff
  - ernst_klim 7y ago
    > First, societies don't just run out of money. Social programs do. Price goes up due to natural reasons, budget goes down due to natural reasons, your government can't provide a service anymore. The most common example is social security, the pension system. Demography changed, age of retirement goes up, payments go down, and you can't do anything about it. Sure, the governments try to deflate the price, but there are no miracles, and artificial price deflation causes deficit, for example a deficit of medical personnel or scarcity of a service.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Money is a proxy for power. That power comes from the ability to trust the government issuing the money and the people the government represents (i.e. the country). You can claim the right to clean water all you want, but unless you fund infrastructure development, and have access to aquifers or fresh water lakes, it doesn't matter how much money a government issues. Similarly, if a country isn't producing enough children to support the elderly, it doesn't quite matter if they've been promised nursing homes. See Zimbabwe and Venezuela.
turk73 7y ago
The US is not like European countries, we are bigger and have different issues. I keep hearing people rave about countries like Denmark or Sweden where everything is supposedly so great. Is paying the total amount over again in tax on a new car really all that great? I could retire right now at 46 if the US adopted govt. run healthcare. Thing is, I would feel extremely guilty about pushing that level of tax burden onto everyone. We in the US forfeit ~50% of our wages in taxes--Federal income tax, federal payroll tax for social security, state, local, sales tax (8%!), property tax, tax on vehicles ("license tabs"--little fucking stickers that if you don't have them the police harass you). Some states like NY have tax people going around all the time fucking with everyone over piddly nonsense like not having a fire extinguisher in a commercial truck. Other states, like NC, have taxes on things like personal watercraft and off road motorcycles. Tax, tax, tax. In addition to taxes, places like NY have "surcharges" and "surtaxes" which are just additional taxes added after the total amount plus tax got calculated. Americans are already tax slaves. Slavery never got abolished, it got extended to all. How much more tax would we need for universal healthcare? Would I be up to 80%? 90%? Where does this end? Would there be any amount of my income I would be allowed to keep?

lotsofpulp 7y ago

I guess my comment was specific to the US, but pay in the medical field is vastly lower in Europe than in the US. Regardless, Europe is still subject to the biggest factor, which are demographic changes and they will have an impact on the availability of future benefits. I would say these past 20 years and maybe next 10 will have been the peak, and then there will be visible cuts in services or quality of services due to lack of people (and/or taxes) to service the debt.

Pungsnigel 7y ago

It's not by any means solved in Europe. // Swede

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Compared to the system in the US it is. How did one researcher put it? "Every healthcare system has its flaws, but the US somehow manages to have all of them."
elindbe2 7y ago
Compared to the US it is. Obviously there are going to be ongoing problems in any large undertaking, but Sweden pays half the cost for healthcare per capita. A 50% discount for equal quality care. Americans like myself are getting absolutely screwed in terms of the cost of healthcare.
lostjohnny 7y ago
Well, you're right! It's not entirely solved yet, we still have to die sometimes...

ernst_klim 7y ago

> Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. As a person which lives in Russia and Germany, I'm really interested in what you mean by solved? Universal healthcare in Russia is a total mess. Universal healthcare (edit: in Germany) have a lot of problems too, of which the most significant is underpayment, low salaries, and such a lack of personnel, that CDU people did really suggest to use conscription to draw the free workforce. The very flaw of positive rights is that you can't guarantee them, since they cost money. If you have no money, your positive rights end there. Yet people still believe that one could guarantee such rights.

ClumsyPilot 7y ago
I am Russian, and Russia is a total mess, full stop. To address positive rights - societies don't just "run out" of money. As has been repeated a million times, a country with a sovereign currency is not run like a household budget. And the "right to clean water" is rather useful in making sure we don't have outbreaks of the plague and other fun stuff
- ernst_klim 7y ago
  > First, societies don't just run out of money. Social programs do. Price goes up due to natural reasons, budget goes down due to natural reasons, your government can't provide a service anymore. The most common example is social security, the pension system. Demography changed, age of retirement goes up, payments go down, and you can't do anything about it. Sure, the governments try to deflate the price, but there are no miracles, and artificial price deflation causes deficit, for example a deficit of medical personnel or scarcity of a service.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Money is a proxy for power. That power comes from the ability to trust the government issuing the money and the people the government represents (i.e. the country). You can claim the right to clean water all you want, but unless you fund infrastructure development, and have access to aquifers or fresh water lakes, it doesn't matter how much money a government issues. Similarly, if a country isn't producing enough children to support the elderly, it doesn't quite matter if they've been promised nursing homes. See Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

turk73 7y ago

The US is not like European countries, we are bigger and have different issues. I keep hearing people rave about countries like Denmark or Sweden where everything is supposedly so great. Is paying the total amount over again in tax on a new car really all that great? I could retire right now at 46 if the US adopted govt. run healthcare. Thing is, I would feel extremely guilty about pushing that level of tax burden onto everyone. We in the US forfeit ~50% of our wages in taxes--Federal income tax, federal payroll tax for social security, state, local, sales tax (8%!), property tax, tax on vehicles ("license tabs"--little fucking stickers that if you don't have them the police harass you). Some states like NY have tax people going around all the time fucking with everyone over piddly nonsense like not having a fire extinguisher in a commercial truck. Other states, like NC, have taxes on things like personal watercraft and off road motorcycles. Tax, tax, tax. In addition to taxes, places like NY have "surcharges" and "surtaxes" which are just additional taxes added after the total amount plus tax got calculated. Americans are already tax slaves. Slavery never got abolished, it got extended to all. How much more tax would we need for universal healthcare? Would I be up to 80%? 90%? Where does this end? Would there be any amount of my income I would be allowed to keep?