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> Jeff needs a good art director. Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least d

> Jeff needs a good art director. Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? Which means more risk? And there's no guarantee he'll hit that even if the graphics look better? He spells out that he's working with freelancers, who often flake out for (understandable) various reasons.

alttab 7y ago
You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. It seems Jeff has put no effort into it, or gave up too early because he's protected his choices with rationalizations.
- dagw 7y ago
  It seems Jeff has put no effort into it While I agree with your assessment, his argument from experience seems to be that none of that will affect his sales, so why bother. I'm sure he knows more about that than I do.
- w0utert 7y ago
  Yes I agree. I almost feel bad for disagreeing with someone who obviously put so much love in his games and rightfully stands behind them, but I cannot shake off the feeling that there is a huge potential for improvement there that does not involve hiring additional people, more expensive artists, etc. Just investing some of his own time reading up on the fundamentals of art, visual language, perception, color theory, could vastly improve his judgement. I try to build games for fun and learning, and I consciously avoid anything that goes beyond my (non-existing) knowledge about creating 'professional' game art. In my case I resort to abstract graphics or introduce very strict voluntary contraints (like: only 8x8 sprites), ie: similar to what games like Baba is You or boxboxboy are doing. If I were to ever shoot for a game that required 'professional game art' I would definitely invest time to get better at it before even considering to start the project. It's a bit like the programming side of things. Don't try to build your own engine for your game if you barely know any programming, for example.
  - eropple 7y ago
    > I try to build games for fun and learning So you're a dilettante? That's fine. So am I. But I don't wonder about my future if my game doesn't sell (or doesn't even ship). He does. Perhaps you should consider being a little more generous in your thinking.
    - w0utert 7y ago
      I was just giving my perspective, not trying to draw any comparisons between my for-fun side projects, and game development for a living. That said, I don’t see any context were either investing time getting better at things you know are a weakness, or recognizing and avoiding them, would be considered bad advice. 25 years is a long time.
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    I suppose, but all of that takes time, and he is only one person, and he only has so much time. If he directs some of it toward all the things you're suggesting, he'll necessarily be directing it away from the things that make a Spiderweb game a Spiderweb game. I don't think he ever came out and said this directly, but he dances around it throughout the article: As a very small indie developer, that's a huge risk to take. He could end up alienating his current fan base, while at the same time failing to satisfy the tastes of others.
    - jofer 7y ago
      That's a really good point that I think a lot of folks are overlooking. Spiderweb games has been around for a long time and has a dedicated following. I actually felt pretty alienated when things like Geneforge came out -- It seemed like a huge step away from the simple sprite-based graphics I loved in his earlier games. (Not that Geneforge was bad, mind you! Just a big change.) Spiderweb has always had a very distinct brand of artwork. Call it crappy if you want, but I've always quite liked it. Don't underestimate the risk of changing your style, particularly when it's a defining part of the experience. You will lose at least some customers. It may be worth it, but it's a significant risk.
- frereubu 7y ago
  Some people just have no aptitude for aesthetics. It's one thing to know what you like personally, another thing entirely to understand what other people may or may not like. Besides which, it feels like you're missing the larger point that he really doesn't care what other people like, which he can afford to do because he's making a comfortable living. I think it's great that he's making a living doing things that he enjoys without having to add stress by adding extra layers of complexity in the process - which would help how? More money? He clearly feels that he doesn't need more.
- tamasnet 7y ago
  Seems like you're rationalizing your assumptions instead of taking it upon yourself to understand the experience he's trying to convey. > It seems Jeff has put no effort into it From the article: "I have had games where I worked very hard to improve the graphics, spending a lot of time and money" > he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way He does direct art himself in some way: "That is why all of my games have a more generic fantasy style. I have to work with a lot of different artists. It's the nature of the business. Thus I have to write games in a way that the artists can be replaced. The generic style this requires is not ideal, but it is necessary."
- jstummbillig 7y ago
  > If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least Yeah, but you have not. Maybe Jeff having a single minded focus – maybe even bordering ignorance – is a huge part of the reason why he, in fact, has done it and keeps on going after 3 decades. Considering different choices, could he be more successful? He probably could, but considering the immense improbability of the level of success he enjoyed over a couple of decades in this particular profession (indie game maker), it seems far more likely that any big change could have made it all crash and burn somewhere along the way a long time ago.
- falcolas 7y ago
  After 25 years of making games, he is directing the art. The art style hasn’t changed - that doesn’t happen over a span of decades without direction. His art direction just doesn’t match the tastes of a large number of folks. Neither did H.R. Geiger’s. Nothing wrong with that.
  - dagw 7y ago
    The art style hasn’t changed But it has, that's what many people are commenting on. His last two games looked much better than his current game. It could just be the luck of the draw with regards to which artists showed up rather than a conscious choice, but his new game clearly has a different look than his previous game.
    - djur 7y ago
      Yes, I hadn't seen any pictures of his new game, so I thought he was talking about Avadon, the Avernum re-remakes, and so on, all of which look fine despite having a decent amount of re-used art and being iso 2D. The screenshots for the new game look worse than any game he's previously released.
- indigochill 7y ago
  >Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. The thing about Jeff is that he very much accepts "good enough". Could he make more or do better? Maybe. But that entails risk. Why bring on risk when you're already doing what you love doing and living off it? To make more money? Jeff's not motivated by money except insofar as it's necessary. He just wants to do what he loves and enjoy his life and family, and the "good enough" pace he's set delivers on that. His art does nothing for me, either, but I do admire his willingness to settle for "good enough" in order to focus on what really matters to him.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. The definition of armchair criticism, if I ever show one. From someone with no experience on that front whatsoever, and who doesn't even get the financial constraints clearly spelt in the article...
- johnnyanmac 7y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. You'd think after spending over 12 years or so trying to read through untranslated Japanese games that I'd get some sense of reading the language. I can't point out some kanji and even read some common sentences by myself but the fact of the matter is I'm not gonna be native anytime soon without focused study. I imagine it's the same case here. There may be some passive knowledge gained over the years but not enough to be a competent art director compared to if he even spent 6 months dedicating himself to learning.
- oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
  I disagree. If anything it's a testament that for his product, art doesn't matter all that much.
- sha666sum 7y ago
  > You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. It might simply be that he isn't particularly interested in learning it. If he isn't motivated by being an art director, then it would very likely lead to burnout.
- freyr 7y ago
  He says at the outset that he’s responsible for the art and everything is done to his specifications. Maybe art just isn’t where his talent lies. I actually wonder if he couldn’t make 2x or more by investing in the art. His previous efforts went from terrible to merely bad. It would be interesting to see what could happen if he crossed the threshold into acceptable. Then again, I don’t know the total market size for this genre. Maybe even fantastic looking games don’t make enough to support two full timers?
SiempreViernes 7y ago
You miss the point: many games have used lots of freelancers, but come out looking good because the one in charge of placing and paying for art has a good aestetic sense for what will look good together. They have an art director. Being that they don't have budget for a new position, they just have to train someone to get better at art directing.
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >they just have to train someone to get better at art directing. You're missing the point: the author is happy with the games and the success they've brought to him and his family, and he doesn't "need" random tips from anonymous message-board posters, most of whom have shipped precisely zero games.
  - meheleventyone 7y ago
    I think Jeff is a treasure to the games industry but this discussion is nothing to do with giving him tips but critique of an article that was posted publically. It's fair to read it and disagree with it in a place specifically setup to comment on such things.
    - vidarh 7y ago
      I read it more as an explanation of why it the suggestions does not work for him. Sure, it's fair to disagree, but it's also very easy to disagree when giving the suggestions does not put at risk a business that has sustained his family for a quarter century in a business where very few even large game studios have survived that long.
      - meheleventyone 7y ago
        Well of course but that doesn't make the critique wrong to make nor dismiss it as irrelevant. Different perspectives are worthwhile to voice.
wlesieutre 7y ago
For what it's worth, I clicked the comment thread here before looking at the article. And without recognizing the author's name, my first thought from what people were saying about it was "It sounds like we're talking about Avernum." I played the demo of one of his games on a bondi blue iMac back in the early 2000's. The graphics then looked ok. But it's 2019 and new titles don't look better. I've wondered before who the userbase is for these; is it just fans from back in the day when game development was a smaller thing and the competition didn't have great artists either? Because I can't see getting into them as a new player. Being able to sell 2x by having a more consistent and up to date art style honestly sounds low to me. Even as someone who's played my share of RPGs, had a Mac back in the day, and know that Spiderweb Software exists, that's the main thing holding me back from checking it out seriously. But if he's getting by with what he's doing and spending more to try and reach a broader market is a risk he doesn't want to take, that's his call.
- kkarakk 7y ago
  Except his competition isn't other indie developers,it's fully staffed studios in india/china/europe that earn the same amount of money with 3 or 4 times the developers. He has to be the best in a certain metric(he seems to have chosen story for this according to the limited time i've played his latest game) and he certainly is head and shoulders above his competition there.
Cookingboy 7y ago
>Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? How does that mean he needs to double the sale? That's not how any of this works unless he wasn't making a profit before. Assuming his budget was $50k, and he made $250k in sales. Now if he increases budget to $100k, he sure as hell doesn't need $500k in sales to justify the decision, in fact as long as his sale goes beyond $300k, or a 20% increase, then it pays for the increased budget.
- spiffytech 7y ago
  According to one old article[0], Geneforge 4 was $3,000 in the hole three years after launch. The current article sounds like he's supporting his family, but not by any great margin. Certainly not by enough of a margin to pay for a second salary out of profit. [0] http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-gam...

alttab 7y ago

You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. It seems Jeff has put no effort into it, or gave up too early because he's protected his choices with rationalizations.

dagw 7y ago
It seems Jeff has put no effort into it While I agree with your assessment, his argument from experience seems to be that none of that will affect his sales, so why bother. I'm sure he knows more about that than I do.
w0utert 7y ago
Yes I agree. I almost feel bad for disagreeing with someone who obviously put so much love in his games and rightfully stands behind them, but I cannot shake off the feeling that there is a huge potential for improvement there that does not involve hiring additional people, more expensive artists, etc. Just investing some of his own time reading up on the fundamentals of art, visual language, perception, color theory, could vastly improve his judgement. I try to build games for fun and learning, and I consciously avoid anything that goes beyond my (non-existing) knowledge about creating 'professional' game art. In my case I resort to abstract graphics or introduce very strict voluntary contraints (like: only 8x8 sprites), ie: similar to what games like Baba is You or boxboxboy are doing. If I were to ever shoot for a game that required 'professional game art' I would definitely invest time to get better at it before even considering to start the project. It's a bit like the programming side of things. Don't try to build your own engine for your game if you barely know any programming, for example.
- eropple 7y ago
  > I try to build games for fun and learning So you're a dilettante? That's fine. So am I. But I don't wonder about my future if my game doesn't sell (or doesn't even ship). He does. Perhaps you should consider being a little more generous in your thinking.
  - w0utert 7y ago
    I was just giving my perspective, not trying to draw any comparisons between my for-fun side projects, and game development for a living. That said, I don’t see any context were either investing time getting better at things you know are a weakness, or recognizing and avoiding them, would be considered bad advice. 25 years is a long time.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  I suppose, but all of that takes time, and he is only one person, and he only has so much time. If he directs some of it toward all the things you're suggesting, he'll necessarily be directing it away from the things that make a Spiderweb game a Spiderweb game. I don't think he ever came out and said this directly, but he dances around it throughout the article: As a very small indie developer, that's a huge risk to take. He could end up alienating his current fan base, while at the same time failing to satisfy the tastes of others.
  - jofer 7y ago
    That's a really good point that I think a lot of folks are overlooking. Spiderweb games has been around for a long time and has a dedicated following. I actually felt pretty alienated when things like Geneforge came out -- It seemed like a huge step away from the simple sprite-based graphics I loved in his earlier games. (Not that Geneforge was bad, mind you! Just a big change.) Spiderweb has always had a very distinct brand of artwork. Call it crappy if you want, but I've always quite liked it. Don't underestimate the risk of changing your style, particularly when it's a defining part of the experience. You will lose at least some customers. It may be worth it, but it's a significant risk.
frereubu 7y ago
Some people just have no aptitude for aesthetics. It's one thing to know what you like personally, another thing entirely to understand what other people may or may not like. Besides which, it feels like you're missing the larger point that he really doesn't care what other people like, which he can afford to do because he's making a comfortable living. I think it's great that he's making a living doing things that he enjoys without having to add stress by adding extra layers of complexity in the process - which would help how? More money? He clearly feels that he doesn't need more.
tamasnet 7y ago
Seems like you're rationalizing your assumptions instead of taking it upon yourself to understand the experience he's trying to convey. > It seems Jeff has put no effort into it From the article: "I have had games where I worked very hard to improve the graphics, spending a lot of time and money" > he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way He does direct art himself in some way: "That is why all of my games have a more generic fantasy style. I have to work with a lot of different artists. It's the nature of the business. Thus I have to write games in a way that the artists can be replaced. The generic style this requires is not ideal, but it is necessary."
jstummbillig 7y ago
> If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least Yeah, but you have not. Maybe Jeff having a single minded focus – maybe even bordering ignorance – is a huge part of the reason why he, in fact, has done it and keeps on going after 3 decades. Considering different choices, could he be more successful? He probably could, but considering the immense improbability of the level of success he enjoyed over a couple of decades in this particular profession (indie game maker), it seems far more likely that any big change could have made it all crash and burn somewhere along the way a long time ago.
falcolas 7y ago
After 25 years of making games, he is directing the art. The art style hasn’t changed - that doesn’t happen over a span of decades without direction. His art direction just doesn’t match the tastes of a large number of folks. Neither did H.R. Geiger’s. Nothing wrong with that.
- dagw 7y ago
  The art style hasn’t changed But it has, that's what many people are commenting on. His last two games looked much better than his current game. It could just be the luck of the draw with regards to which artists showed up rather than a conscious choice, but his new game clearly has a different look than his previous game.
  - djur 7y ago
    Yes, I hadn't seen any pictures of his new game, so I thought he was talking about Avadon, the Avernum re-remakes, and so on, all of which look fine despite having a decent amount of re-used art and being iso 2D. The screenshots for the new game look worse than any game he's previously released.
indigochill 7y ago
>Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. The thing about Jeff is that he very much accepts "good enough". Could he make more or do better? Maybe. But that entails risk. Why bring on risk when you're already doing what you love doing and living off it? To make more money? Jeff's not motivated by money except insofar as it's necessary. He just wants to do what he loves and enjoy his life and family, and the "good enough" pace he's set delivers on that. His art does nothing for me, either, but I do admire his willingness to settle for "good enough" in order to focus on what really matters to him.
coldtea 7y ago
>If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. The definition of armchair criticism, if I ever show one. From someone with no experience on that front whatsoever, and who doesn't even get the financial constraints clearly spelt in the article...
johnnyanmac 7y ago
Maybe, maybe not. You'd think after spending over 12 years or so trying to read through untranslated Japanese games that I'd get some sense of reading the language. I can't point out some kanji and even read some common sentences by myself but the fact of the matter is I'm not gonna be native anytime soon without focused study. I imagine it's the same case here. There may be some passive knowledge gained over the years but not enough to be a competent art director compared to if he even spent 6 months dedicating himself to learning.
oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
I disagree. If anything it's a testament that for his product, art doesn't matter all that much.
sha666sum 7y ago
> You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. It might simply be that he isn't particularly interested in learning it. If he isn't motivated by being an art director, then it would very likely lead to burnout.
freyr 7y ago
He says at the outset that he’s responsible for the art and everything is done to his specifications. Maybe art just isn’t where his talent lies. I actually wonder if he couldn’t make 2x or more by investing in the art. His previous efforts went from terrible to merely bad. It would be interesting to see what could happen if he crossed the threshold into acceptable. Then again, I don’t know the total market size for this genre. Maybe even fantastic looking games don’t make enough to support two full timers?

SiempreViernes 7y ago

You miss the point: many games have used lots of freelancers, but come out looking good because the one in charge of placing and paying for art has a good aestetic sense for what will look good together. They have an art director. Being that they don't have budget for a new position, they just have to train someone to get better at art directing.

navigatesol 7y ago
>they just have to train someone to get better at art directing. You're missing the point: the author is happy with the games and the success they've brought to him and his family, and he doesn't "need" random tips from anonymous message-board posters, most of whom have shipped precisely zero games.
- meheleventyone 7y ago
  I think Jeff is a treasure to the games industry but this discussion is nothing to do with giving him tips but critique of an article that was posted publically. It's fair to read it and disagree with it in a place specifically setup to comment on such things.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    I read it more as an explanation of why it the suggestions does not work for him. Sure, it's fair to disagree, but it's also very easy to disagree when giving the suggestions does not put at risk a business that has sustained his family for a quarter century in a business where very few even large game studios have survived that long.
    - meheleventyone 7y ago
      Well of course but that doesn't make the critique wrong to make nor dismiss it as irrelevant. Different perspectives are worthwhile to voice.

wlesieutre 7y ago

For what it's worth, I clicked the comment thread here before looking at the article. And without recognizing the author's name, my first thought from what people were saying about it was "It sounds like we're talking about Avernum." I played the demo of one of his games on a bondi blue iMac back in the early 2000's. The graphics then looked ok. But it's 2019 and new titles don't look better. I've wondered before who the userbase is for these; is it just fans from back in the day when game development was a smaller thing and the competition didn't have great artists either? Because I can't see getting into them as a new player. Being able to sell 2x by having a more consistent and up to date art style honestly sounds low to me. Even as someone who's played my share of RPGs, had a Mac back in the day, and know that Spiderweb Software exists, that's the main thing holding me back from checking it out seriously. But if he's getting by with what he's doing and spending more to try and reach a broader market is a risk he doesn't want to take, that's his call.

kkarakk 7y ago
Except his competition isn't other indie developers,it's fully staffed studios in india/china/europe that earn the same amount of money with 3 or 4 times the developers. He has to be the best in a certain metric(he seems to have chosen story for this according to the limited time i've played his latest game) and he certainly is head and shoulders above his competition there.

Cookingboy 7y ago

>Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? How does that mean he needs to double the sale? That's not how any of this works unless he wasn't making a profit before. Assuming his budget was $50k, and he made $250k in sales. Now if he increases budget to $100k, he sure as hell doesn't need $500k in sales to justify the decision, in fact as long as his sale goes beyond $300k, or a 20% increase, then it pays for the increased budget.

spiffytech 7y ago
According to one old article[0], Geneforge 4 was $3,000 in the hole three years after launch. The current article sounds like he's supporting his family, but not by any great margin. Certainly not by enough of a margin to pay for a second salary out of profit. [0] http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-gam...