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> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake beca

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened. In absence of personal fulfilment, HK youth are searching for an identity. > The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event Yes, that was the trigger. However there are triggers, and underlying sentiment. Remember the Umbrella Revolution was a thing only a few years before. For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. [..] the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. -- Joseph Weizenbaum Everybody dies at some point, anyway. All wealth goes down the drain. What these people are changing, and what cannot be taken from them, is themselves. If the results will "not be pretty", there will be no end to songs about them in our lifetime and maybe that of our children and grandchildren -- the kind of songs that would excactly not get written about people with cushy finance jobs, not even once. This isn't meant as snark against you, it's a compliment for them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak
- throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
  I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.
  - degoodm 7y ago
    Macau actually experienced a big recession while Hong Kong has grown steadily, overtaking the US in GDP per capita. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:MAC:HKG:CHN:USA https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#...
    - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
      Right, but even after the big recession, it’s still significantly higher than Hong Kong, almost double.
  - ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
    Or is it because they can move to Portugal if they want to, thus feel like they have an escape?
  - junar 7y ago
    Macau's position has been solidly pro-Beijing for over 50 years. I wouldn't understate the political differences here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau
  - computerfriend 7y ago
    Macau passed the national security law.
- roboys 7y ago
  >You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. Getting rid of segregation has a strong moral foundation and backing... keeping colonial roots in control of HK, not so much.
seppin 7y ago
> if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened You are assuming HKers would sell their freedom to a tyrprican government in exchange for GDP growth the way mainland Chinese can. That's a big assumption.
- chibg10 7y ago
  It's not like mainlanders every really had a choice. Their own protests were crushed with tanks in 1989 and they've been relentlessly propagandized on everything from the papers to the schools to social media since then. I have zero doubts such strong propaganda efforts over decades would yield similar results on the vast majority Americans had it happened here.
  - roboys 7y ago
    It did happen here (in the West) and your views on China were molded by the framing our propaganda efforts introduced.
  - seppin 7y ago
    Writing off the surrender of mainlanders of all their rights to "effective propaganda" is undercutting the very real sense of grievance and fear/hatred of foreigners already present.
    - chibg10 7y ago
      But much of the canonical mainland political belief system is incompatible with rational thought and generally shared moral principles. And mainlanders are obviously not any less rational or moral on most topics. Mainlanders may not like it to hear it, and I'll even go as far as to say the best strategy for discussing politics with mainlanders is to not directly tell them this, but their political canon is anomalously full of holes that are exposed when explored in any significant depth (yes I've been through this process with mainlanders).
- mitfahrener 7y ago
brigandish 7y ago
It seems to me to be quite the assumption that in order to fight for a prize you must expect you can win. There are plenty of examples throughout history, let alone in any of the many incidents of competition happening today - from sport all the way to war - of the opposite.
18pfsmt 7y ago
>That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs This is so cynical it makes me sad. Some people have principles that are not necessarily the best for their own personal outcome, but they are deeply felt. I've never been an ambitious person, but I appreciate those that are and all they have created. I do live by principles, however, and my own personal well-being comes second to the idea of liberty. There is a reason HKers were carrying American flags-> because America is an idea. I certainly support the people of HK protesting this power-overreach.
pas 7y ago
> that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, ... sources? yes, finance was always big in HK, but how many people got those cushy jobs really?

PavlovsCat 7y ago

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. [..] the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. -- Joseph Weizenbaum Everybody dies at some point, anyway. All wealth goes down the drain. What these people are changing, and what cannot be taken from them, is themselves. If the results will "not be pretty", there will be no end to songs about them in our lifetime and maybe that of our children and grandchildren -- the kind of songs that would excactly not get written about people with cushy finance jobs, not even once. This isn't meant as snark against you, it's a compliment for them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak

throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.
- degoodm 7y ago
  Macau actually experienced a big recession while Hong Kong has grown steadily, overtaking the US in GDP per capita. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:MAC:HKG:CHN:USA https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#...
  - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
    Right, but even after the big recession, it’s still significantly higher than Hong Kong, almost double.
- ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
  Or is it because they can move to Portugal if they want to, thus feel like they have an escape?
- junar 7y ago
  Macau's position has been solidly pro-Beijing for over 50 years. I wouldn't understate the political differences here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau
- computerfriend 7y ago
  Macau passed the national security law.
roboys 7y ago
>You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. Getting rid of segregation has a strong moral foundation and backing... keeping colonial roots in control of HK, not so much.

seppin 7y ago

> if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened You are assuming HKers would sell their freedom to a tyrprican government in exchange for GDP growth the way mainland Chinese can. That's a big assumption.

chibg10 7y ago
It's not like mainlanders every really had a choice. Their own protests were crushed with tanks in 1989 and they've been relentlessly propagandized on everything from the papers to the schools to social media since then. I have zero doubts such strong propaganda efforts over decades would yield similar results on the vast majority Americans had it happened here.
- roboys 7y ago
  It did happen here (in the West) and your views on China were molded by the framing our propaganda efforts introduced.
- seppin 7y ago
  Writing off the surrender of mainlanders of all their rights to "effective propaganda" is undercutting the very real sense of grievance and fear/hatred of foreigners already present.
  - chibg10 7y ago
    But much of the canonical mainland political belief system is incompatible with rational thought and generally shared moral principles. And mainlanders are obviously not any less rational or moral on most topics. Mainlanders may not like it to hear it, and I'll even go as far as to say the best strategy for discussing politics with mainlanders is to not directly tell them this, but their political canon is anomalously full of holes that are exposed when explored in any significant depth (yes I've been through this process with mainlanders).
mitfahrener 7y ago

brigandish 7y ago

It seems to me to be quite the assumption that in order to fight for a prize you must expect you can win. There are plenty of examples throughout history, let alone in any of the many incidents of competition happening today - from sport all the way to war - of the opposite.

18pfsmt 7y ago

>That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs This is so cynical it makes me sad. Some people have principles that are not necessarily the best for their own personal outcome, but they are deeply felt. I've never been an ambitious person, but I appreciate those that are and all they have created. I do live by principles, however, and my own personal well-being comes second to the idea of liberty. There is a reason HKers were carrying American flags-> because America is an idea. I certainly support the people of HK protesting this power-overreach.

pas 7y ago

> that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, ... sources? yes, finance was always big in HK, but how many people got those cushy jobs really?