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The truth is that plastic generally can't be recycled, and we should stop pretending as such. Consequently it would make sense to tax it and generally discourag

The truth is that plastic generally can't be recycled, and we should stop pretending as such. Consequently it would make sense to tax it and generally discourage its use as much as possible. Polluters get away with overusing plastic packaging precisely because consumers stop caring when they think it can be recycled.

ImprovedSilence 7y ago
Agreed. Incentivize the correct materials.
- 18pfsmt 7y ago
  One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Great intentions do not always lead to great outcomes (often the opposite).
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I know what you mean. You can still buy cheap incandescent bulbs where I live, despite EU-wide phaseout, because they're clearly labeled "not for domestic use"... But this shows that regulating the market is not a "fire and forget" deal, but an iterative process. First you make the main bad thing more expensive than good behavior. Then you look for "life finding a way", "clever entrepreneurs" abusing loopholes, and make those more expensive too, one by one. You end when you hit diminishing returns.
    - 18pfsmt 7y ago
      Eventually you create a black market like drug cartels and the Russian mob. Perhaps we should legalize narcotics and sell them in Walgreens and CVS instead of "subsidizing" SPECTRE. "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -Princess Leia
      - nardi 7y ago
        For plastic? Lol. The point isn’t to eliminate literally all plastic use. It’s to save the freaking planet. Taxing plastics based on their harm to the environment has the capability to drastically decrease their use, and possibly (help) save the planet.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        > Eventually you create a black market like drug cartels and the Russian mob. Not necessarily. These kinds of black markets form around things with specific demand profiles; plastic for packaging and disposable goods isn't one of them. Also, I'm not talking about putting people in jail for this, just making the whole thing much more expensive (through taxation and maybe extra bureaucracy). People aren't gonna start dealing plastic forks and individually plastic-wrapped cookies on the black market; they simply aren't gonna bother making them and switch to different materials.
  - flavor8 7y ago
    > One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Uh, yes you can. Just look at the different car fleets in Europe (where gasoline taxes are high) vs the US (where gasoline taxes are low.) The first thing I notice when driving from the airport either in Europe when I'm visiting or the US when I'm back is the different composition of cars on the road - the US has lots of pickups and SUVs, where Europe has a lot of small coupes and sedans. That's driven by gas pricing, and mpg standards. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu... > Great intentions do not always lead to great outcomes (often the opposite). "Do not always" is not the same as "cannot". It is true that incentives can have unexpected results, but as another poster replied, the answer to that is to iterate and improve rather than "not try in the first place". Markets do not lead to perfection without guidance.
    - njarboe 7y ago
      Why many people in the US buy trucks and SUVs over cars is due to a lot of factors. A major one that is not well known is that US auto manufactures have had a high incentive to promote them since a 1964 tax law[1] set a import 25% tax on light trucks. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
      - remarkEon 7y ago
        I'm skeptical that the import duty had a significant effect on truck and SUV sales in the US. A lot of this is probably cultural, coupled with the fact that much of the United States wasn't really settled and developed (at scale) until after WWII. Pickups are just more useful in places that are less dense. Plus, they look cool and are fun to drive. >Robert Z. Lawrence, professor of international trade and investment at Harvard University, contends the tax crippled the U.S. automobile industry by insulating it from real competition in light trucks for 40 years. This comment also made me laugh. I doubt that we'd be seeing everyone drive Tatas around the ranch instead of Fords if they didn't have a 25% import duty.
        7y ago
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    >>> One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Incorrect. Taxation has proven to be a very effective way to incentivize certain behaviors and disincentivize others. It's a very powerful tool to deal with many types of problems that typically ail free markets, such as tragedy of the commons.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    Sure you can. Tax products that make use of non-recyclable materials unless there is a good reason an alternative cannot be made or unless the product is a durable good that can last for 10+ years or is proven to be the most environmentally friendly of the alternatives. You can also do things like giving back a deposit on some plastics, cans, and glass bottles. The reason Norway recycles so many of their single use bottles is because of this. IIRC, companies get a tax break for participating in the program. Fund recycling centers and subsidise them so they are more standardised. Require that centers send plastics that they cannot recycle to a place that can. Subsidise this as well. And lastly, when problems come up with your solutions, fix them. You don't have to have great outcomes at first, merely sufficient ones or ones that are better than the current system. Things happen, and anyone should be prepared for it.
  - ImprovedSilence 7y ago
    I agree with your sentiment. But usually I see “life finding a way” when there is just an outright ban or law, with plenty of loopholes. I think banning the wrong things is much less effective than providing the correct incentives to do the right thing. Ie tax plastic bottles or something. However I will give you that there well may be unseen consequences to this, and sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t, but ya gotta try something...
  - pixl97 7y ago
    Right, this is why only use Radium based lip balm, the light green glow is perfect for attracting attention at the local nightclub.
  - specialist 7y ago
    Regulation makes the market. No regulation (rules), no market. What you oppose are incentives you disagree with.
  - oblio 7y ago
    Oh, so that's why the market phased out leaded gasoline? :-)
mirimir 7y ago
It's appalling how much many containers (plastic, waxed paper, and multiple-layer) and how much packaging we go through every week. We get some bulk food from the local coop. And in the summer, we buy from farmers' markets. But there's no practical way to buy milk, ice cream, detergent for dishes and clothes, prescription drugs, etc. So I end up saving containers, thinking that I'll find some use for them. But it's pretty hopeless. So yes, I'd say that we need regulations.
- cujo 7y ago
  FWIW, we have a local market/co-op type thing where you can bring your containers to be filled with laundry detergent, various liquid soaps, and similar products. I wish this type of thing was more popular.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Maybe our local coop does that. I don't recall seeing it, but I'll ask. One of the things that I liked about Mexico was the survival, at least in the sleepy little city I lived in, of old-school commerce. Market places, of course. But also stores where customers were expected to supply their own "packaging". A milk store, where you got milk in a 1L plastic bag, if you didn't bring your own container.
    - psychrometer 7y ago
      They have stores which only sell milk?
      - mirimir 7y ago
        This was in small towns. So yes, there was a milk store. Which sold milk that people delivered directly from their farms. Not pasteurized. You were supposed to boil it at home. Also a coffee store, which also bought directly from farms. And a bakery, with wood-fired ovens. Plus many other small stores. And then, an hour away by motor vehicle, was a Walmart. Stuff was so inexpensive there that many local stores resold stuff that they bought there.
blue_devil 7y ago
>>The truth is that plastic generally can't be recycled, and we should stop pretending as such. This. Plastic _was_ developed to be long-lasting, the indestructibility is _by_design. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20240243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20240243
- didbsivdf 7y ago
  I mean sure, but that’s not why it’s not recyclable. I mean we don’t rust iron to recycle it! Plastics are hard to recycle because their melts don’t mix. As a result, when cast, you end up with an interface inside your part where the plastic can delaminate and fail. Therefore, to recycle plastic you have to classify it according to type (plastic things usually have little numbers stamped on them indicating type) and you have to be right over 99% of the time.
  - pixl97 7y ago
    Yep, plastics can be wildly incompatible. Growing up my dad had a fishing tackle store with bulk plastic fishing worms. Customers, being customers would occasionally pick them up and leave them at other places in the store, like in another bin of plastic worms or some other plastic object. If not noticed quickly this could lead to a big clump of plastic goo as they reacted and melted each other down.
  - blue_devil 7y ago
    Right, my point is that plastic items originally were meant to replace heavier/bulkier items, but with a comparable longevity. Not to be used as single-use throw-away items. The need to recycle comes from the fact plastic stopped being used for durability, and it hence thrown away in humongous quantities.

ImprovedSilence 7y ago

Agreed. Incentivize the correct materials.

18pfsmt 7y ago
One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Great intentions do not always lead to great outcomes (often the opposite).
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I know what you mean. You can still buy cheap incandescent bulbs where I live, despite EU-wide phaseout, because they're clearly labeled "not for domestic use"... But this shows that regulating the market is not a "fire and forget" deal, but an iterative process. First you make the main bad thing more expensive than good behavior. Then you look for "life finding a way", "clever entrepreneurs" abusing loopholes, and make those more expensive too, one by one. You end when you hit diminishing returns.
  - 18pfsmt 7y ago
    Eventually you create a black market like drug cartels and the Russian mob. Perhaps we should legalize narcotics and sell them in Walgreens and CVS instead of "subsidizing" SPECTRE. "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -Princess Leia
    - nardi 7y ago
      For plastic? Lol. The point isn’t to eliminate literally all plastic use. It’s to save the freaking planet. Taxing plastics based on their harm to the environment has the capability to drastically decrease their use, and possibly (help) save the planet.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > Eventually you create a black market like drug cartels and the Russian mob. Not necessarily. These kinds of black markets form around things with specific demand profiles; plastic for packaging and disposable goods isn't one of them. Also, I'm not talking about putting people in jail for this, just making the whole thing much more expensive (through taxation and maybe extra bureaucracy). People aren't gonna start dealing plastic forks and individually plastic-wrapped cookies on the black market; they simply aren't gonna bother making them and switch to different materials.
- flavor8 7y ago
  > One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Uh, yes you can. Just look at the different car fleets in Europe (where gasoline taxes are high) vs the US (where gasoline taxes are low.) The first thing I notice when driving from the airport either in Europe when I'm visiting or the US when I'm back is the different composition of cars on the road - the US has lots of pickups and SUVs, where Europe has a lot of small coupes and sedans. That's driven by gas pricing, and mpg standards. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu... > Great intentions do not always lead to great outcomes (often the opposite). "Do not always" is not the same as "cannot". It is true that incentives can have unexpected results, but as another poster replied, the answer to that is to iterate and improve rather than "not try in the first place". Markets do not lead to perfection without guidance.
  - njarboe 7y ago
    Why many people in the US buy trucks and SUVs over cars is due to a lot of factors. A major one that is not well known is that US auto manufactures have had a high incentive to promote them since a 1964 tax law[1] set a import 25% tax on light trucks. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
    - remarkEon 7y ago
      I'm skeptical that the import duty had a significant effect on truck and SUV sales in the US. A lot of this is probably cultural, coupled with the fact that much of the United States wasn't really settled and developed (at scale) until after WWII. Pickups are just more useful in places that are less dense. Plus, they look cool and are fun to drive. >Robert Z. Lawrence, professor of international trade and investment at Harvard University, contends the tax crippled the U.S. automobile industry by insulating it from real competition in light trucks for 40 years. This comment also made me laugh. I doubt that we'd be seeing everyone drive Tatas around the ranch instead of Fords if they didn't have a 25% import duty.
      - 7y ago
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  >>> One cannot coercively distort the market with government power and expect that life will not, "uh, uh, find a way." Incorrect. Taxation has proven to be a very effective way to incentivize certain behaviors and disincentivize others. It's a very powerful tool to deal with many types of problems that typically ail free markets, such as tragedy of the commons.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  Sure you can. Tax products that make use of non-recyclable materials unless there is a good reason an alternative cannot be made or unless the product is a durable good that can last for 10+ years or is proven to be the most environmentally friendly of the alternatives. You can also do things like giving back a deposit on some plastics, cans, and glass bottles. The reason Norway recycles so many of their single use bottles is because of this. IIRC, companies get a tax break for participating in the program. Fund recycling centers and subsidise them so they are more standardised. Require that centers send plastics that they cannot recycle to a place that can. Subsidise this as well. And lastly, when problems come up with your solutions, fix them. You don't have to have great outcomes at first, merely sufficient ones or ones that are better than the current system. Things happen, and anyone should be prepared for it.
- ImprovedSilence 7y ago
  I agree with your sentiment. But usually I see “life finding a way” when there is just an outright ban or law, with plenty of loopholes. I think banning the wrong things is much less effective than providing the correct incentives to do the right thing. Ie tax plastic bottles or something. However I will give you that there well may be unseen consequences to this, and sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t, but ya gotta try something...
- pixl97 7y ago
  Right, this is why only use Radium based lip balm, the light green glow is perfect for attracting attention at the local nightclub.
- specialist 7y ago
  Regulation makes the market. No regulation (rules), no market. What you oppose are incentives you disagree with.
- oblio 7y ago
  Oh, so that's why the market phased out leaded gasoline? :-)

mirimir 7y ago

It's appalling how much many containers (plastic, waxed paper, and multiple-layer) and how much packaging we go through every week. We get some bulk food from the local coop. And in the summer, we buy from farmers' markets. But there's no practical way to buy milk, ice cream, detergent for dishes and clothes, prescription drugs, etc. So I end up saving containers, thinking that I'll find some use for them. But it's pretty hopeless. So yes, I'd say that we need regulations.

cujo 7y ago
FWIW, we have a local market/co-op type thing where you can bring your containers to be filled with laundry detergent, various liquid soaps, and similar products. I wish this type of thing was more popular.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Maybe our local coop does that. I don't recall seeing it, but I'll ask. One of the things that I liked about Mexico was the survival, at least in the sleepy little city I lived in, of old-school commerce. Market places, of course. But also stores where customers were expected to supply their own "packaging". A milk store, where you got milk in a 1L plastic bag, if you didn't bring your own container.
  - psychrometer 7y ago
    They have stores which only sell milk?
    - mirimir 7y ago
      This was in small towns. So yes, there was a milk store. Which sold milk that people delivered directly from their farms. Not pasteurized. You were supposed to boil it at home. Also a coffee store, which also bought directly from farms. And a bakery, with wood-fired ovens. Plus many other small stores. And then, an hour away by motor vehicle, was a Walmart. Stuff was so inexpensive there that many local stores resold stuff that they bought there.

blue_devil 7y ago

>>The truth is that plastic generally can't be recycled, and we should stop pretending as such. This. Plastic _was_ developed to be long-lasting, the indestructibility is _by_design. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20240243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20240243

didbsivdf 7y ago
I mean sure, but that’s not why it’s not recyclable. I mean we don’t rust iron to recycle it! Plastics are hard to recycle because their melts don’t mix. As a result, when cast, you end up with an interface inside your part where the plastic can delaminate and fail. Therefore, to recycle plastic you have to classify it according to type (plastic things usually have little numbers stamped on them indicating type) and you have to be right over 99% of the time.
- pixl97 7y ago
  Yep, plastics can be wildly incompatible. Growing up my dad had a fishing tackle store with bulk plastic fishing worms. Customers, being customers would occasionally pick them up and leave them at other places in the store, like in another bin of plastic worms or some other plastic object. If not noticed quickly this could lead to a big clump of plastic goo as they reacted and melted each other down.
- blue_devil 7y ago
  Right, my point is that plastic items originally were meant to replace heavier/bulkier items, but with a comparable longevity. Not to be used as single-use throw-away items. The need to recycle comes from the fact plastic stopped being used for durability, and it hence thrown away in humongous quantities.