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I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own p

I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. They've watched as China has gradually taken control of the governing body, the media, the financial management and the police. Each transpired more or less over a number of years, but each was also worrisome and that worry and anxiety pent up. The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event, it was a judicial one: A new law was proposed that would enable any court in China to charge and then extradite a Hong Kong resident without checks by Hong Kong's judges. Effectively, it would mean that Hong Kong's judicial system was subordinate to China's judicial system, and therefore, did not have a judicial system at all. There have been many foreboding events that portend the loss of liberty that Hong Kong residence fear. Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. Addendum: The Chinese judicial system is as one with the communist party. It does not operate the same basic law that Western countries, and tenuously Hong Kong, operate. Under China's judicial system, people literally disappear for months or more with no information provided to family or employer. Many times, they never return.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
More about the proposed law: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611/no-guarantee-fair-trial-hong-kong-extradition-bill https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611... One of the foreboding events before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
Mikeb85 7y ago
> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened. In absence of personal fulfilment, HK youth are searching for an identity. > The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event Yes, that was the trigger. However there are triggers, and underlying sentiment. Remember the Umbrella Revolution was a thing only a few years before. For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. [..] the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. -- Joseph Weizenbaum Everybody dies at some point, anyway. All wealth goes down the drain. What these people are changing, and what cannot be taken from them, is themselves. If the results will "not be pretty", there will be no end to songs about them in our lifetime and maybe that of our children and grandchildren -- the kind of songs that would excactly not get written about people with cushy finance jobs, not even once. This isn't meant as snark against you, it's a compliment for them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak
  - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
    I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.
    - degoodm 7y ago
      Macau actually experienced a big recession while Hong Kong has grown steadily, overtaking the US in GDP per capita. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:MAC:HKG:CHN:USA https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#...

PavlovsCat 7y ago

More about the proposed law: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611/no-guarantee-fair-trial-hong-kong-extradition-bill https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611... One of the foreboding events before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...

Mikeb85 7y ago

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened. In absence of personal fulfilment, HK youth are searching for an identity. > The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event Yes, that was the trigger. However there are triggers, and underlying sentiment. Remember the Umbrella Revolution was a thing only a few years before. For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. [..] the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. -- Joseph Weizenbaum Everybody dies at some point, anyway. All wealth goes down the drain. What these people are changing, and what cannot be taken from them, is themselves. If the results will "not be pretty", there will be no end to songs about them in our lifetime and maybe that of our children and grandchildren -- the kind of songs that would excactly not get written about people with cushy finance jobs, not even once. This isn't meant as snark against you, it's a compliment for them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak
- throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
  I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.
  - degoodm 7y ago
    Macau actually experienced a big recession while Hong Kong has grown steadily, overtaking the US in GDP per capita. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:MAC:HKG:CHN:USA https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#...