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Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I c
by zwaps 7y ago
Why can't you imagine anyone do better?
It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries.
The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independent countries, censoring and even harvesting organs of prisoners for profit (probably for political elites). And most of those things on a scale previously unimaginable. Furthermore, one might argue (and I am not saying this is black and white) that the process of raising people out of poverty has as much to do with technical progress, foreign trade and China's geographical and demographic makeup, as it has to do with actual policy (and one could therefore imagine even better outcomes!)
I think it is indeed very easy to imagine things going better in China!
That's the entire point, I think. Citizens should be willing and able to be unhappy with their governments, and be able to express this without disappearing. That you can not imagine anyone doing better in China is what the OP was talking about.
Edit: Just to make this clear, I do not want a discussion on the merits of the CCPs policies - everyone can have their own opinion on that - much like for any other country. But the worry is the well rehearsed narrative that China is somehow unique and requires, basically, an iron fist rule. This I have seen many times in discussions with Chinese - saying that all these criticisms may be good and well for other countries, but not for China. And this in the end amounts to unwillingness to question the CCP in any way. And that, I think, is not good.
- markus_zhang 7y agoI can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real. I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable. Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good. Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about these as I'll say you don't have true proofs and you will say I'm brainwashed, we will never agree to each other. Organ harvesting actually does happen, I can say for that, because I just read a report (in Chinese btw) a few days ago, but it was not large scale and definitely not in the ideology. 2) Suppressing free speech: Yes that's one of the bad, but TBH you can blame the government online as much as you want because so many other people are doing the same...people seldom got caught JUST because of that. For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more. 3) Questionable economic measures: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? 4) Strongarming other independent countries: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? Just the real world, more the reason that people should work hard instead of dreaming about vacations to fight off these strongarmings. TBH with the economic strength of China it is quite peaceful... In short, citizens are indeed able to express their unhappy with the government, and a lot of people (in the mainland) protest, too. The weird thing about my western friends is that they seem to be pretty scared about China, and I honestly can't tell why...
- NoodleIncident 7y ago> For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more. I'm neither educated nor motivated enough to argue with most of this. But preventing China from punishing HK people according to China's laws is the _entire point_ of the protests, is it not?
- markus_zhang 7y agoIt might be legitimate for a western people e.g. you may be used to get different laws in different levels of government, but it's utterly unthinkable for the Chinese. The fact that HK even keeps foreign judges and officials pretty much surprised a lot of Chinese.
- nailer 7y agoYou know Taiwan and Korea are successful democracies right? Why do you think people choosing their leaders is a western attribute? The PRC itself is even ostensibly run by the people (it obviously isn't).
- brigandish 7y agoIf Hong Kongers really are Chinese then, on the contrary, it's thinkable.
- NoodleIncident 7y agoI didn't ask for your opinion about the protests, because you've already made it quite obvious. It is complete bullshit to use them as an example to say that the freedom of speech of the average Chinese citizen isn't restricted.
- scarmig 7y agoThe state-sponsored organ theft is speculative, both in extent and purpose. But the concentration camps for Uyghers are well-documented, and they really can't be grouped with the organ donation claims. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps .